Fingerprint on the Wall of Life/ Athlone Clarke

Working Artists! You are not alone! Listen to these entertaining and inspirational podcast conversations with working artists.

As a child, Athlone Clarke https://www.athloneclarke.com/ used his drawings to communicate with his mother, who passed away giving birth to him. This therapeutic activity developed a perception in Athlone that is the foundation of his creative process as a visionary artist. When describing his artistic style, Athlone says he wants to be surprised with each artistic outcome and avoids defining limits that will "contribute to the building of his own prison." He aims to make his most authentic work and "leave his fingerprint on the wall of life." A genuinely inspirational conversation.


Visual artists Douglas Sigwarth https://www.sigwarthglass.com/ and Will Armstrong http://www.willarmstrongart.com/ co-host and discuss topics affecting working artists. Each episode is a deep dive into a conversation with a guest artist who shares their unique experiences as an independent professional artist. In today’s preamble, the hosts talk about the end of year chaos, the downturn in sales, and walking back Des Moines.


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Transcript

0:00
[Music]
0:11
welcome to the independent artist podcast sponsored by the National Association of Independent Artists also
0:18
sponsored by zapplication I'm will Armstrong and I'm a mixed media artist I'm Douglas sigworth glass blower join
0:25
our conversations with professional working artists [Music]
0:31
all right everyone we'll see how this goes today will and I are literally pressing paw on a super busy schedule
0:38
and uh yeah we're kind of all over the place humbug to you sir how are things
0:44
yeah things are good things are good but you know what we're not the only ones I'm sure going through all this I bet a
0:49
lot of listeners out there are trying to wrap everything up for the holidays and just you know do the end of year stuff
0:55
going on here yeah and hats off to the Jewelers out there they seem to be getting hit extra hard always this time
1:00
of year or I guess I hope they are I don't know it's a blessing and a curse obviously because you're busy and you
1:07
can't really get into the family and you are constantly doing new commissions and
1:12
trying not to say no to work so yeah it's it's an anxiety-ridden time for a
1:17
lot of folks and especially those giftable crafters and and artists out there so hang in there it's almost over
1:24
we've been actually working our website since the last show getting ready for this shutdown
1:30
where we still want to make sales of things that we have on hand so I've been playing around with different ways to
1:37
take photographs and present them online and we've been having some good success with it so I kind of feel like what
1:44
you're describing with Jewelers is what we're going through right now with those holiday orders people getting them in before before and they never want the
1:50
that's in stock you know they want the thing that's still on your website that you haven't taken down that it's
1:56
like oh I'll just have this and you're like okay uh don't want to say no let me go make that real quick totally I've got
2:03
a commission working right now that's on the easel that that honestly should ship
2:08
tomorrow that is about a quarter of the way done so we'll see how the rest of this this day goes that's right I'm
2:14
excited I haven't seen my my parents in a while they're coming into town tomorrow and they'll be here for five
2:20
days the kids get off of school my oldest crushed it in her exam so that's
2:25
always good that's great that's exciting you know yeah she she does a lot in school than I ever
2:31
did she gets all stressed out about studying for things and I'm like it didn't get it from me studying what's
2:38
that yeah so you're back from a show tell everyone about Chicago anything you
2:44
want to share you know what everybody I talk to uh just down across the board
2:49
especially 2D 2D artists were way down across the board the sky is falling so
2:56
uh tighten up your panties we've got a recession that's my prediction so or it's just craziness in the news cycle
3:04
and uncertainty in a lot of areas people tend to be a little more hesitant when
3:10
that stuff's going on I guess maybe I've milked this show for too long but uh I did not have a particularly good weekend
3:17
and I got tired of doing that having no sales so I just started posting everything online and had an okay thing
3:23
through Instagram we've given that kind of a break because of all the iners stuff but you know that is kind of our hail Mara at the end of the year isn't
3:30
the online stuff yeah yeah I guess it is I've got some you know I created some small things that I thought would be
3:36
giftables but they ended up being better accent pieces for previous clients so I had previous clients bite at those
3:43
pieces that I thought would be giftables for this show instead so that and honestly um I I had enough work to
3:51
finally kind of give to my gallery that's up there in Chicago too that has been kind of stared for original work so
3:58
that's good you know got my irons in the fire and and uh it's just kind of a bummer so does your gallery secretly
4:05
hope you have a crappy show so that you can have fill them up with inventory on the way out of town you know the gallery
4:11
is owned by uh another couple that are Independent Artists so I know that they
4:16
don't wish that on me but at the same time they're happy to have the work how about that that's feel like threading
4:23
the needle shaking hands and kissing babies Douglas that's what I'm doing it's a it's a political answer that's
4:29
right so but yeah I mean I don't know it's uh when you're when you don't crush it at your last show it's a little hard
4:35
to get psyched for the holidays and buy a bunch of that nobody needs I had one of the the networks on and I was
4:41
watching and they were having like like last minute gift ideas and it just I was watching that stuff and I'm like God it
4:48
just looked like so much landfill oh yeah like you know just plastic crap
4:53
that people don't need or want that was like I don't know the the whole thing goes around where people are talking
4:58
about you know Buy from Independent Artists like yeah but like two weeks ago
5:03
do the right do it a while ago I I don't it's too much now now don't yeah well do
5:10
you ever feel like certain like depending on how your year went if uh
5:16
your gifts for the year for those around you kind of turn into your Creations
5:21
that you make for for gifts instead of having to to go out and buy them do you ever do that yeah yeah I do and uh you
5:29
know it's it's funny it's like if I land on the perfect gift then I'm super psyched so one artist that I uh that I
5:36
met over the this past weekend was somebody that I'd never seen before and cool I love some uh handblown glass
5:43
functional glass like like rocks glasses and and my wife and I been I'm guessing you're gonna say Dante Germaine yeah do
5:50
you know he's awesome he's a he's from our area here uh he's a young upand Comer I'm I'm really really excited to
5:57
see where his career takes off he's great yeah for sure and he had another artist who was just kind of assisting
6:05
him for the weekend and I looked them up too and they're super talented but Dante Germaine and I'm just going to give him
6:11
a shout out because I was walking by and I was just I just responded to the Aesthetics of the the work and not
6:19
exactly like the story of it and so I looked and I was like oh picked it up I'm like it's like a whiskey glass in my
6:25
hand and I'm like this feels amazing I want to pick up a couple of these then I I went back to my booth and I'm
6:32
whatever and then I ran back over there right at breakdown and and I apologized for for hitting him as he's packing up
6:38
but dropped a little cash on these but so okay take my brother-in-law right
6:43
yeah um he's a high powerered attorney in Minneapolis super high anxiety
6:50
getting tired of the the grind right okay yeah so he and his whole family like they one of their big getaways is
6:56
to go up to duth walk around Lake Superior and and hunt for rocks mhm and
7:02
uh and another getaway that he likes to do is to have a have a nice whiskey at the end of the day uh so I'm like I
7:08
picked this thing up and he's hand blowing this work into found rocks from
7:14
different areas that is so cool yeah I totally love what he does it's just so cool it's like well well here's your
7:20
perfect thing like I didn't even realize the story behind it so uh shout out to Dante Jermaine uh killer work and um
7:27
honestly you won Christmas for me sir so so thanks perfect perfect gift that's awesome well we made gifts this year and
7:36
it's been a while since we've done that but it takes me back to when we first uh
7:41
started blowing glass and our first year like in 1994 every single gift we gave was glass
7:49
and people were like oh my God this is so cool we're so excited to see what you're doing yeah but the novelty kind
7:55
of wore off around like 1999 they're like uh wonder what we're getting this
8:00
year oh man I had done a series of like little sculptures for my mom this like
8:07
whole series of elves and I wanted to get into claymation and so they were like done out of sculpy and they looked
8:13
very much like little claymation characters and I thought that's what I wanted to do when I was in my early 20s
8:18
and so I got pretty good at it and uh you know but she loves them and I made
8:25
this whole like World of them but she wants those every year and I finally just had to I was like look I just can't
8:31
you're ruining Christmas I'm like I can't do it anymore
8:38
oh so no I mean I I've definitely given gifts but that to me sounds more stressful right now than credit card de
8:45
there you go well speaking of being stressed out was kind of a a fun attempt for us to do a recording with you in
8:53
Chicago uh last week um the hotel that you were at actually had a podcasting
9:00
Studio that's pretty cool yeah well it is uh but it reminded me of Radio Days
9:06
yeah you'd have the show in front of you would do like real DJ work like like turntable work and and do like hip-hop
9:14
scratching and looping things and they'd bring their own setup in and they'd plug it all in and it was pretty cool to have
9:19
that kind of show on except for the fact that they just unplug everything out of
9:25
the back and you were just left with loose wires and limited experience on how to plug it all back in and that's
9:32
that's what I ended up with this year so last year it worked it was super cool this year it was a huge pain in the ass
9:37
and we had to delay the episode by a week yeah I mean that was so much fun last year to you know the day after the
9:42
show and kind of a new setting and everything but yeah I know your struggle with plugging all this stuff in and when
9:49
like the drivers aren't updated and things aren't working there's like no getting over it and we're trying to squeeze this in like an hour before you
9:56
actually have to go to work and sell your stuff so right that was a nightmare I did have a showing that morning and
10:03
then took a a taxi back across town to get back to the hotel in order to do that and my my pocket was fat because
10:11
they wanted a little uh they wanted to pay in cash so I had the dirty pillow in my pocket and scrambling to try to plug
10:19
in you you were super patient um you know who wasn't super patient with the whole are we giving him a shout out for
10:24
this one absolutely he was very disappointed so Oscar deato he was very
10:30
disappointed in us for not having the episode ready for his listening pleasure so we're so sorry sir I apologize
10:37
hopefully this is a nice soundtrack to whatever the hill you have going on this week we have to roll with it right we
10:42
just rolled with it yeah definitely so appreciate your patience and your uh your loyal uh listenership is
10:50
listenership a word is that word if it isn't it is now all right okay sounds like something I hear on uh Minnesota
10:57
Public Radio and they're on a member drive thank you for your listenership oh very nice it is a word yeah yeah hey um
11:04
you ever forget that you're talking to people just besides me you ever do that you're just you're saying do I ever just
11:10
start talking to somebody and thinking it's you or what are you say no no like when you and I are sitting here having a
11:16
chat do you ever forget that there are people out there listening oh right yeah but I will say I do remember pretty
11:23
quickly when you drop a questionable or inappropriate statement once in a while that I'm like oh God people listening my
11:30
co-host was sexist for like six minutes straight edit so what I strive for in my
11:37
interviews when we talk you know when we have our when we have our guests on and and stuff I just want to get the public
11:44
to understand and know them a little bit better and to just have an honest real
11:49
conversation you know and just just to get down to it and you do a good job at it too I love that thank you not not
11:56
searching for compliments I'm just trying to get uh an honest interaction and when I was talking to rob the other
12:03
week I forgot that there are people out there and I got an email from our good friend Stephen King uh the director of
12:10
The Incredible De Moine Arts Festival yes I got an email from him he's like so
12:16
when you asked Rob why he moved to De Moine why did you say De Moine like you
12:23
had a dandelion in your mouth so um like I I told him you know
12:31
the truth which was that I had a huge musical number uh about de Mo it was
12:37
like I love De Moine and I we did this whole thing and I was dancing and then you said I was pitchy and cut it and
12:44
then you interspersed De Moine of me saying it derisively and that's that's what happened it's your fault
12:52
oh no everyone knows I am actually originally from Iowa born and raised and
12:58
debuk and so I find that people who aren't from the mid Midwest tend to have a disdain for the area so that's on you
13:07
I bought a property in the midwest I adore uh Minnesota and uh adore the De
13:13
Moine Arts Festival you know so uh if that came off in any way negatively uh
13:19
many apologies to the to the great city of De Moine and and um and the great state of um Pig farming Iowa really
13:29
really well that's what you want to say there that's are you serious this is what you're going with roll it that's
13:35
right run it so we got a great talk that I recorded with Athlon Clark last week
13:43
amazing artist and he's a really cool guy you know we sit there and we we try to come up with uh who we like to talk
13:48
to and it it certainly is not hard we have such a varied uh incredible Community but sometimes there are people
13:55
that come along that you or I will suggest and the other one of us will be like oh my God yes holy how have we
14:01
not had soone is one of those those artists I was lucky enough to be across
14:07
from him at Gasparilla a few years back and and had a pretty cool talk with him
14:12
and and it it'll be incredible for everybody else to hear his story and uh kind of his views he's got some pretty
14:18
pretty deep thoughts on on the art show industry and and just art in general so yeah I love when he talks about having
14:25
two bodies of work because I think that every art show artist who makes a living
14:30
out on the road rides that line between what is sellable and what is like like
14:37
he says like looking into the abyss the the the dark Waters of what he wants to express from his soul and he did have a
14:45
story about some of that work not going over too well with with the director
14:50
that he said this is a little bit too controversial we'd like you to take work down that's going to be an interesting
14:56
conversation I think people will enjoy hearing about yeah I can't wait for everybody to hear that part of the story
15:01
and that part of the talk and if you guys have any comments or have ever experienced anything like that we love
15:07
to kind of interact with the listeners if you want to post something up on our Facebook page or respond uh any any of
15:14
your thoughts or experiences too um so without further Ado let's just jump right into your talk with athlone Clark
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I can't wait for everybody to hear this episode of The Independent artist podcast is brought to you by zap the
15:26
digital application service where artists and art festivals connect hey will do you remember the old way of
15:32
doing these applications with red dots on the slides and self- address stamped envelopes do you uh still have a rotary
15:39
phone Douglas no I don't remember that well I just like that they were
15:44
with us back then when we made the switch from analog to digital it's a huge switch and now zap is the industry
15:50
standard and they're always creating features that make our lives easier too so I do like what zap does and I do like
15:57
that most most of the shows I apply to are on zap lication exactly so I personally appreciate what zap is doing
16:04
and thanks for not making us reinvent the wheel every single week like we used to have to do this week we have a
16:10
youthful Arts Festival to promote this particular show feel like I'm on The Dating Game at 97 years young uh it's
16:17
Originals only and runs in the beginning weekend of June who are we talking about Douglas we are talking about Written
16:23
House Square Fine Art Show and it's not just the 97y old show it's both shows
16:29
this is a call to entry for their June show and the one in September people will argue about which one is better but
16:35
uh when that is the case it just means it's a great show across the board uh you ever see the servant on Apple TV I
16:42
have not it actually takes place right around those neighborhoods of writtenhouse square gorgeous area
16:47
affluent Philadelphia inner city suburb if you will and just really cool homes
16:53
and this one is an Originals only show no reproductions allowed and not just
16:58
only originals but no functional work either that's right the focus is on Fine
17:03
Art and one other thing that makes this show pretty darn remarkable it's a show
17:09
run by artists for artists so they know what's important to you the deadline for
17:15
that June show June 7th through the 9th is coming up best get on we're talking January 9th and for the September show
17:23
which is September 20th through the 22nd that deadline is March 11th athon Clark
17:29
has been a proud exhibitor at that particular Festival he's our guest this week if you want to see the kinds of
17:35
work check that out at their website which is that's writtenhouse art.com and uh come on what are you
17:42
waiting for log on to zap and get your application in Athlon I am so happy
17:48
you're here with me today on the independent artist podcast I'm really happy we'll get to know each other a
17:53
little bit better through the course of this conversation so welcome thank you I appreciate you you uh having me on your
17:59
program sure you bet well I guess let's start from the very beginning let's
18:05
let's go back to Jamaica and your origin story can you tell me a little bit about yourself and kind of your
18:11
upbringing well I was born in Jamaica 67 years ago I grew up in a little place
18:18
called Spanish Town which is uh I'd say 13 miles out of the city of Kingston so
18:24
it's kind of considered at least back when I was up somewhat rural rural okay
18:30
and uh also idealic in the sense that you know it was a very close-knit kind of community and not to sound cliche but
18:38
everybody knew everybody and you know there was this sense of community I'm not sure what it's like these days but I
18:45
suspect a lot might may have changed you were used to being in a community of people who kind of everybody knew each
18:50
other and you felt the support of the community and everything absolutely without question I went to high school
18:57
there a school by the name name of San Diego High School After High School I went off to college studied for a few
19:03
years you know after working professionally for maybe five to seven
19:08
years I decided that it was time for me to uh try something else and so to be
19:15
perfectly honest I I was at odds in terms of the the focus and maybe even
19:21
the discipline of of the profession that I was involved in and what was that profession I graduated as a lawyer okay
19:30
gotcha um I practiced for a few years but uh in all honesty I think I kind of
19:35
did it as a way of making my father proud you know because I was his only
19:41
son at that time he uh was a prison officer and you know a very humble circumstances and he put all his effort
19:48
in making sure I was properly educated and I had what he considered to be a bread and butter profession which
19:54
basically means you know a profession where the chances of making it but much greater so art was not something that he
20:01
was behind or supportive of to a certain extent you know I remember when I was
20:06
much younger possibly in my pre-teens I grew up with just him because my mother
20:12
had uh had been deceased okay you know I would do little sketches because she
20:19
considered herself an artist but not a professional artist she was mostly a dabbler you know doing little uh
20:24
sketches and so on and so forth so okay I I kind of saw art as a way of kind of
20:30
communicating with her in high school I I was probably one of the few uh
20:36
students who kind of studied art at what we call the advanced level but the funny thing was that the art school or the art
20:43
class I should say was behind the school meaning that all the science labs and
20:48
the important classes were held in the main building the art building was way in the back and that kind of sent us I
20:54
guess you'd say a sub subliminal message that right art was just a filler it was not that important some reason I always
21:01
found myself completely at ease there with the other so-called Misfits you
21:06
know I I I developed this sense of confidence about my creative skills I
21:11
can't say the same for my other subjects you know because I didn't consider myself necessarily a smart kid but when
21:17
it came to Art I was somewhat confident and at the time although I didn't know
21:23
it it was kind of a cheap therapy for me we never Ed the word therapy back then
21:28
but it it it soothed my soul and made me feel as if I had a purpose and so I
21:33
thought I was you know relatively good at it so I studied uh art at the advanced level losing your mother at
21:40
such a young age actually how how old were you when she passed she she died
21:46
shortly after she had me and uh wow so you never had a a relationship with her
21:52
as a child no well I had a relationship with her but I have no memory of her oh
21:58
right if you know what I'm saying because she loved me deeply and and all of that so you know I you know I
22:04
sometimes try to tap into what is called the pre-birth memory you know where I I I try to understand what she might have
22:12
been like because she had a choice she didn't have to uh you know choose me but
22:17
for some reason she she decided to and she paid dearly for it and what what do you mean by that she had a weak heart
22:24
that was weakened by what is called rheumatic fever and uh she had had a child before and she was advised not to
22:31
have any more children because it would reduce her chance of uh being alive of staying alive her heart was badly
22:37
damaged from having that first child that was still born and so um she uh I
22:45
guess with my father decided that uh she wanted to take her chances and so at
22:51
some point I'm told the doctor on realizing she was pregnant again said well you can have an abortion now or you
22:59
can uh take your chances and she decided to take her chances and ultimate
23:05
sacrifice he uh kind of paid with her life so I I kind of grew up honestly
23:11
carrying a lot of guilt for that yeah the weirdest part of growing up was I
23:16
always wondered if I was my stillborn brother who had passed on in childbirth
23:21
you know you come back come back through come back again that type thing so it uh it it led me into you know some very
23:29
dark thoughts you know which for a child that young I think it may have even
23:35
twisted my perception of life I I guess I'm guessing well there's so many struggles that come from that loss did
23:42
you have any kind of a I know that you had a connection with your mother in let's say Spirit sense but in physical
23:50
sense did you have a mother figure here in the present in the now kind of thing
23:56
well indeed I did my grandmother mother who was her mother was the most perfect human being I had up to this day I've
24:03
ever known and okay she showered me with a lot of love even to the point where people thought that he was spoiling me a
24:09
bit and um my father at some stage you know people were saying to him you know
24:15
I think he's just too soft and him he's a boy you need to get him and teach him quote unquote the manly things and so
24:22
and at one point uh he came to get me I was living in the city of Kingston with
24:27
her came to pick me up and I remember just really uh being pulled apart in
24:32
fact she she was wearing a brooch and I held on to her so tight that the brooch kind of uh left this scratch in my arm
24:40
in my hand which I can see to this very day okay so it reminds me of how close my grandmother was she was uh as far as
24:46
I'm concerned she was an angel wow but when my father got me he you know good intentioned uh took me to live in
24:54
Spanish Town where he he was working and it was just he and I up at that point
24:59
and so he did the best he could but I don't think he was you know he's old
25:04
school not necessarily an emotionally accessible kind of guy but he made sure I had three Square meals a day and all
25:10
of that so anyway he would encourage me to draw and paint just like my grandmother did because supposedly the
25:17
were these were kind of letters that my mom would understand and read and so on and so forth of course being a child I
25:22
believed it and so that was where my first introduction to Art began because
25:28
it was a kind of language for me or a form of communication with my dear departed mom and so well I know we'll
25:36
we'll get to your kind of your art practice a little bit later here but would you say that was the kind of the
25:41
initial seeds for you tapping into Spirit the other side and realizing there is a thin veil between that side
25:48
and this this Earthly side you nailed it I I I I absolutely believe that was the
25:55
Genesis of me looking at art I guess in a very unconventional way I I'll just
26:01
jump forward just to make this point okay I recently had someone who wanted
26:07
to represent me and you know in the past he has been pretty good at it but we
26:12
were having a conversation once and he said you know I like the artists that sell and I didn't say anything at the
26:19
time but I kept reflecting on what he said and I I realized that for
26:25
him art was just a product you know for me it was more it was a
26:30
commodity you know it was like you know you have a farm and you till the soil and you nurture the trees and then
26:36
someone comes in and just wants to pluck the fruit and so he was not really interested in the process as such he
26:42
just wanted art that sold and for me I I
26:48
I I know he said it with the best of intentions but I looked at my practice
26:54
of Art in a deeply spiritual way you know I I I think of myself as the Creator just as there is a God who's the
27:00
creator and if we are made in the image of the Creator then I feel blessed to have this Talent this gift to to to
27:08
create an idea out of nothing and to have it manifest in front of my eyes and to have people who find Value in what I
27:15
do so I see it as a kind of celestial communication type thing you know which
27:22
I guess I'm very sentimental in that respect for me it's more than just a product it's more just the finished
27:28
product it's the process it's it's it's it's it's the evolution it's the learning it's the understanding it's
27:34
it's humility it's it's it's it's all of these you know kind of nonverbal things
27:41
that affects me deeply so I don't just paint for Aesthetics I paint as a form of therapy but I also paint as a form of
27:48
uh meditation if you will so actually then that maybe perhaps the side benefit of course we all need to make a living
27:55
and support ourselves the primary Focus isn't the selling of it the primary
28:00
focus is creating true authentic work and then trusting that that process
28:06
you'll be supported in the way that you need from the Universe I couldn't have said it better that's beautiful and the
28:12
seeds of that kind of of Life were planted right at the beginning for you
28:19
right at the beginning and uh at a point where I I would imagine growing up without
28:27
that maternal protection and and bonding
28:32
there has to be some element of I suppose trauma in that and so although I
28:39
didn't at the time consciously think of art as being the the the salv or the the
28:45
the the thing that would cure me it turned out to be that way you know I'm not saying I'm completely over it
28:51
because every now and again I go back you know I see my friends their interactions with their mothers and so
28:56
on I wonder what it would have felt like but at the same time I don't dwell on it
29:02
I dwell on creating work that can I guess you'd call a catharsis for all of
29:07
these feelings yeah yeah so you said you were steered in the direction to be a
29:13
lawyer you graduated as a lawyer and worked in that profession you came to the decision that this isn't the way you
29:20
wanted to live your life and you you made a change can you talk about that
29:25
shift you know it's a beautiful profession for people who are good at it but for me maybe I was a little bit too
29:31
scatterbrained you know in the sense that I I like creating things too much paperwork gets me very flustered you
29:38
know I don't like to make I didn't feel as if I wanted to make a living listening to people's problems and
29:45
misery and all of that kind of stuff and maybe in my looking back maybe I was just being too romantic I guess you'd
29:53
say in terms of how I wanted to make a living everything we do in life as a stepping stone to where we end up need
29:59
to end up and I think that there were benefits you possibly got from that but there's no need to like have regrets
30:06
over the fact that it wasn't the right fit because you are in the spot right now where you ultimately wanted to be it
30:12
it was preparation for where I am now and it I I have no regrets about going
30:17
to law school because I think it gave me as you know kind of made me more
30:23
analytic in terms of understanding the things around me um May a little bit more flexible and so even when I these
30:30
days when I I create you know I I don't just create from just passion you know
30:35
there is a certain analysis that goes on which I think I inherited from that period of my life that's cool yeah I I I
30:42
can see that yeah there's spontaneity yes but you know as the old saying goes
30:47
spontaneity takes practice you know it actually does yeah so when you decided
30:53
to make a change in your life is that what brought you to the US um
30:59
so my father when he died I remember
31:04
watching his casket going down and I thought you know life is too short to
31:09
spend it living for somebody else's expectations and I felt free I felt like
31:16
I'm free to pursue whatever it was that was waiting for me in the future I never
31:22
said well I'm going off to be an artist or anything like that I just just wanted to be free I wanted to you know life to
31:28
take me in the direction that I was meant to go and or at least give give
31:34
myself a chance of figuring out what was the best fit for me yeah and so I
31:39
decided to take off and uh come to the states after you know I buried my father
31:46
and quite honestly at that time I wasn't even sure what I wanted to do I just know that whatever it was would find me
31:53
and that takes a lot of faith yes well thank you I I didn't feel that way at the time I felt a little bit lost and
32:00
yeah a lot of times we hear people move to America for a better life so to speak I thought I had a pretty good life in
32:07
Jamaica but what drew me here was a sense of adventure and wanting to kind of just see what's on the other side of
32:13
the fence to go beyond the borders of the little island that I grew up on as beautiful as it is so I came here and
32:21
for number of years I just kind of like did whatever I had to do in on order to
32:27
make a living and you know there were times when I was uh I would think what
32:33
if IID stayed behind and you know um you know especially when things got very difficult but luckily I met this
32:40
beautiful woman who happens to be my wife and her name is Alice Alice yeah
32:47
Alice Alice yeah her upbringing was for want of a better word unconventional she
32:53
grew up on the Navajo reservation in Arizona and you know was um just had a
32:59
completely different Outlook and I remember when we just met I kind of was warning her I said I like you or we we
33:06
care for each other but honestly if I were you I'd run because I don't think I
33:12
I don't think I'm going to amount to much you know I I I have conflicting thoughts in my mind and you know I can
33:19
be contrary and all of that kind of stuff and yeah for whatever reason she decided that uh she was you know willing
33:26
to take a chance and so I remember her saying quit looking backwards cuz you keep looking backwards you're going to
33:32
trip up just focus on what you want to do or find something where your passion resides and the only thing I could
33:37
really think of at the time was Art you know because I love the process of creating and so I started being a little
33:44
bit of a dabbler you know feeling here and there having other jobs in the meantime finally I kind of found my feet
33:51
I found I found my my equilibrium and I started realizing that I could actually
33:56
make a living at although initially it was a living just enough to uh take care
34:01
of our after we got married take care of our small family but okay over the years it has it has grown and uh I am where I
34:08
am now yeah so initially did you enter into your art practice in a similar way
34:14
that you are now or was that an evolution it was definitely an evolution
34:21
again because I had this passion for art I was willing to see it through no matter where it took me and then with
34:28
her encouragement you know because it's it's hard enough doing it on your own but if you have someone who doesn't
34:35
really see the dream the way you do it makes it a lot more difficult and I must say that she was always 100% behind me
34:43
and one point I made my living kind of as a freelance writer and the thing about being a freelance writer is that
34:50
the money is very sporadic and uh you can't really budget and stuff and she made sure that you know held the house
34:57
down and that the responsibilities were taken care of just to free me up so I could really think and you know expand
35:04
my thoughts and so on so that kind of was the the the foundation of me
35:11
becoming a working artist not just a hobbyist who's doing it on the weekend not just someone who's doing it for you
35:17
know pleasure but but but but someone who is able to gain discipline out of
35:23
passion so I was both passionate about it but I also realized that I had to approach it with a sense of discipline
35:30
and not just willly nearly uh based on whether I want to pay today or not so
35:35
every single day I make sure that I put in a certain amount of hours
35:40
understanding my craft and you know just just approaching it with the same discipline that I approached my my
35:46
profession in Jamaica so tell me I heard a story that you had told about a blind woman who saw
35:54
your work early in your career and she gave you some feedback that kind of changed how you thought about your work
36:00
is would you like to tell that story absolutely and I'll even send you a picture of something recently that
36:06
happened in Denver Colorado this year wonderful cool I think the story you're uh you're alluding to is I was doing a
36:15
show in Atlanta this lady came up you know she was being pushed in a wheelchair and uh she came into my space
36:23
and she was you know wearing dark glasses and was focusing on one particular spot you know I walked up to
36:30
her introduced myself and I was basically like what do you like about my work and she was basically saying
36:37
something to the effect that uh if I explain to you I'm not sure you would understand and I I was kind of slightly
36:43
offended I was like what why do you think I would understand I did it you know and she said well tell me about your process and I said well what I did
36:51
was this what I did was that and then I moved from this thought and I thought of that and I prep pred canvas here and I
36:58
was going on and at the end of it all she said you know I I I love what you do but I noticed you say a lot of eyes I do
37:07
this I do that I do that and she was like I think you're more of a conduit
37:12
you know um it's it's it's something coming through you and so you can't take
37:17
all the credit basically I can't remember her exact words but her sentiment was that you know it's it's
37:23
not just about what you do it's about being used as a vessel you know at the time I was slightly offended because it
37:29
sounded like she was kind of preaching to me and tell you know kind of uh right censoring what I was saying and you
37:35
didn't know that she was blind at that point right no I didn't because the the young man who was pushing her in i i
37:41
later found out was her grandson the young man said well she's actually blind so what she's seeing is probably not
37:48
necessarily what you're seeing so you know she was maybe operating on vibrations and all of that right and you
37:53
know at the time I didn't I didn't understand how that worked so you know I just I was very dismissive of it you know I was like yeah but as I got
38:02
older I realize that she was on to something because at the time perfectly honest
38:09
with you I was kind of allowing my ego to you know Steer the ship give me that
38:15
sense that it yeah it was all about me and what you know that type thing but she help me to understand that there are
38:22
different levels of perception mine might be visual but she being blind she operated on a completely different maybe
38:29
a vibrational kind of perception of what was there and recently when I was in um
38:36
Denver I'll send you a picture of it you know this young lady came up and again she came up with some family members and
38:42
the family member came up and said can she touch your work and I said of course okay and she just kept feeling and
38:48
feeling and feel and I said well why why is she and he said she's completely blind but for some reason she's drawn to
38:55
your work and and it was the second time that had happened to me and I was like what she said yeah and then I went up to
39:01
and I spoke with her and she saidoh my God I love your piece is so much and of course this time I took the opportunity
39:07
of explaining to her the various objects that I worked with and all of that and she was gracious enough to let me uh
39:13
take a picture of her while she was feeling and touching the work and all of that so I'll I'll send you a picture of
39:19
that I would love that so this is a different woman who's blind and also reacted in a very similar way very
39:26
similar way and it was like uh 30 years later or maybe 25 years later or something like that but it it humbled me
39:34
also because I realize again that you know sometimes as artists we can be ego driven yeah you know we tend to
39:43
overlook certain people because we judge them based on the things that we're
39:49
capable of doing but it takes kind of a level of humility to understand that
39:55
there are people out there who are are just as perceptive and just as vibrant
40:00
and as smart but they may not necessarily do so through the the five senses that we claim to have yeah and so
40:06
it really humbled me and uh brought me to a point where I understand that I'm just kind of a conduit I'm a servant you
40:14
know I'm I'm I'm I'm a vessel for something that is much much bigger than than than myself well isn't it
40:20
interesting that that is the process you work in and we all go through these
40:25
periods of where we feel really like confident in the process that we do that
40:30
we we feel good about it but then there might be times where we question it or a second guess it and this experience
40:38
almost like a mirror of the past comes in at this point in time and it lets you
40:44
know that it's being received from a spiritual visceral way as well even
40:50
though you've been doing this for this long you know what I'm saying it still Rings true absolutely yeah so you're a
40:58
mixed media artist and you base a lot of your artwork or the themes or the
41:04
imagery in your artwork around objects you find can you talk about how you
41:10
connect with objects and how they are an integral part of your work well before I explain that you know you use the term
41:18
mix media artist and of course for Simplicity that's what I am but going a
41:23
little bit deeper I kind of just work with whatever is available in the sense that people have said to me in the past
41:30
well you know you should have a style where if you're downtown let's say Beijing and somebody sees your work they
41:36
know it's an athlone Clerk or if they're in Europe and they see your work they know it's an athlone Clerk or whatever I
41:42
look at people like Marcel Duchamp or Robert renberg or you know I can come up
41:48
with several people who they're not confined to a particular style or a particular label you know they just work
41:55
with whatever is a available and I I I I would like to see myself like an artist
42:02
who just like I don't have the same thing for breakfast every morning I don't necessarily feel I should
42:07
participate in the building of My Own Prison by confining myself to a particular medium or to a particular um
42:15
label so I just do what I want to do and and so you know I can put two of my
42:21
paintings side by side and they look completely different and I know it's confusing for some people but I have to
42:27
be authentic in terms of my own feelings and I can't just do it because I want
42:33
things to match or I I I work but it's pretty much the same with except for a
42:39
few variations so people can readily and quickly identify my work I totally get
42:45
that and I love that that as soon as you slap a label on it it then it's like a
42:52
box you've now painted yourself into that say you want to step outside of that it's like then do you have to
42:58
redefine who you are well if you don't have those restrictions then you are everything you know you are nothing you
43:05
are you're all of it you can be whatever and it's it's a it can be a daily surprise as to how you are inspired or
43:12
what direction you want to go in very beautifully said and I I the way I approach it is that when I'm finished
43:18
with a piece I want it to be as much as a surprise to me as it is to someone
43:23
who's looking at it for the first time I like the element of surprise and so if I start having these scripts in my mind or
43:31
these sketches in my mind then it's like I'm following you know a particular idea
43:37
slavishly yeah without being true to my own personal Direction and again I don't
43:44
wear the same thing every day I don't eat the same thing every day and so I feel I have to approach my work with
43:49
with the same sense of adventure I sometimes see myself as kind of a I
43:55
guess You' say research scientist you know you'll have the the the the the doctor out there who makes a lot of
44:00
money and he's uh let's say a plastic surgeon yeah but I'm that guy who I I'm
44:07
in the lab and I'm working with different kinds of medicines I'm mixing things I'm experimenting and all of that
44:14
just to see what comes out and so it's it's it's it's it's a different kind of creative process for me I like
44:21
experimentation that's what keeps me alive to answer your question more directly I thoroughly enjoy working with
44:28
found objects because and particularly old objects because I feel as if they
44:34
have inherited these stories in them and as I said to you when we had spoken
44:41
earlier we live in kind of a modern throwaway Society where as soon as something is not functional we toss it
44:48
to the side and unfortunately we do it with people too you know when they're no longer useful to us we kind of toss them
44:54
aside I'd say and in some respects some things are created with the idea of
44:59
being thrown away because of this capitalistic world we are in it's then
45:05
you can keep the money spiral going you know what I'm saying so we do discard
45:11
things very quickly and so I find these old objects and you know my house is almost like a
45:18
landfill because I I I pretty much never throw anything away my my wife sometimes
45:24
sweeps my uh little Studio and I'm digging through the the stuff that she swept aside trying to find things that I
45:31
still want to keep yeah you know I I cherish these objects because I think each one has a
45:38
story and I feel that with patience and with time they will reveal their stories to
45:44
me and I include them in my work because
45:50
I think it it it infuses a kind of energy in my work whether it's Nostalgia you know somebody sees a piece that oh
45:57
my God I grew up with those old old curling irons or whatever and you know it kind of creates that language that
46:02
they can identify with and I feel it's
46:08
also I guess metaphorically speaking it's a way of me breathing new life into
46:13
things that most people would toss away or most people would Overlook I find them and I say thank you for the work
46:19
that you have done now I'm going to uh give you another opportunity to shine
46:25
and so I find them and I use them in my work like you know these some of these pieces behind me you know pieces of bone
46:32
pieces of wood pie you know little vase here and all of that and I just bring them together and I think it enhances my
46:40
work and I think I'm honoring the stories of these objects in a creative
46:48
way and selfishly it gives my work depth and it it creates a kind of complexity
46:53
that I find to be very attractive yeah I am definitely a found objects artist and uh I I do paint I enjoy
47:01
painting but then sometimes I just want to hammer two pieces of wood together and you know uh throw some wire over it
47:09
and just sit there and admire it you know that's that's the kind of artist that I I would like to be or that I am
47:15
well tell me about the Japanese philosophy where an object develops a soul I can't I'm not going to try to
47:22
pronounce it in uh Japanese I I think I would it but it's part of the shintu
47:28
religion I believe okay where they believe that an object that has lasted
47:34
over a hundred years inherits a kind of soul and if you find that object and you
47:41
you're patient enough that object will reveal itself to you in its stories and
47:46
so as I said to you earlier I will have 10 different objects from different
47:52
parts of the world mhm or that have completely different functions but I sit
47:59
there and I study them enough to you know make sure they're compatible if you
48:05
will just like in a choir each choir member has maybe a different voice or a
48:11
different Melody but the the the conductor or the choir Master is able to bring all these disparate voices
48:18
together and create one massive beautiful piece of art and so that's
48:23
kind of what I do so it it it comes down to a piece that is greater than the sum
48:29
of its parts if you know what I'm saying sure you know it's it's it's it it creates this this beautiful Melody
48:36
visual Melody of ideas and and so again in Japan they have this reverence for
48:44
things that have lasted for a very long time and the example I gave it's like having a pot that has cooked delicious
48:53
food for your family for decades es M but now that pot is old and black and
48:58
beaten up and has you know holes in the bottom of it the first impulse would be
49:03
to throw the pot away in the garbage or something but then somebody who is aware
49:10
of that service or the the sentimental value of that pot will say you know
49:15
rather than throwing it away let's let's use it as a container for plants let's put some plants in it it has whole holes
49:21
in the bottom so it will be perfect for putting a mtry or beautiful flow in it
49:26
so that part now changes its identity
49:32
and creates a service for something that is completely different from what it was used for before I hope that kind of
49:39
explains it okay uh do you feel like in that that process of using these objects
49:47
as sources of inspiration that as the Japanese say they it develops its own soul or do you
49:55
think that the energy from the people who've used it or connected with that object throughout the years kind of
50:02
becomes infused into it and are you do you feel like you're picking up that aspect of it or is it is it all of it is
50:09
it really the whole you know the story of its life basically I think it's a combination of the two I think it
50:16
becomes a repository for those people who have worked with it anything that
50:22
has atoms in it basically is alive that's the way I see it a rock you know
50:28
piece of stick you know it has atoms it's alive so even though it might be a pot made of aluminum or whatever there's
50:35
a certain level of life in it first of all humble ourselves to not be
50:40
dismissive but to really study it and connect with it you know there's an old
50:46
saying it takes it takes an uncommon man or I should say an uncommon person to
50:52
see the beauty in common things you know and and so things that we see that are
50:59
invisible to most people if you're really uncommon in your thought process
51:04
you can see Beauty in it or you can find the beauty that that lives in it it's not about being famous or anything like
51:11
that but it's about finding a repository for your energy finding something that
51:17
will outlive you once you have transition on this planet yeah and so I think that's kind of what I'm striving
51:23
for you know if my work ends up in just in somebody's basement or in their
51:29
garage you know as long as it inspires you know someone or or someone finds
51:35
Beauty in it I feel that that's my version of what eternal life is well
51:41
let's talk a little bit about like your process and process is so personal I
51:47
understand that I don't want you to give away your like you know two revealing or whatever when you're working with the
51:53
pieces I know what's really important to you and your work is that it comes from
51:58
an authentic place and so I know that we can't always be let's say in a calm
52:06
happy place sometimes we're in a worried State sometimes we're in a different state how do you work when your process
52:14
is so driven by this integrity and authenticity when there might be days
52:20
that you're not exactly where you want to be in that moment I think some of the
52:25
greatest novels that have been written don't necessarily have a happy ending you know I I think it's a little bit
52:33
idealistic to think that every day you wake up you want to paint and it's going to make you feel good and you're going
52:39
to feel fulfilled and all of that but I think discipline is not feeling as if
52:47
you want to do it but doing it anyway MH the problem I used to have and maybe to
52:52
a small extent now is that having to make a living let's say at the festivals
52:58
yeah you kind of don't want to go too dark you know what I mean because you know for the most part you're you're
53:04
catering to people who want to hang a happy painting over the fireplace or something like that okay I have two
53:11
bodies of work and I have the work at home where I really put my angst and my
53:19
whatever might be tormenting me at that particular time I use my work in a cathartic type of way and I I
53:25
create these pieces that are very intense and whatever okay I don't always take these pieces out to shows right at
53:32
the same time I don't confine myself to happy paintings right but I also know the difference between something that is
53:39
really dark and something that is kind of tolerable and I have to make a living
53:44
and so what I do is that I I create work that if you you know for the festivals especially you stand in front of it you
53:51
can feel the authenticity you can feel the Integrity in the piece but but it's not exactly like a lynching scene you
53:58
know I have paintings I I remember once when I was kind of naive and I thought to hell with what people think I'm going
54:05
to do what I want to do and at the time I was very troubled about stories that I've heard about lynching in the South
54:11
and all of that right and I created a piece that was very dark and it was called blood in the
54:16
wellwater and I took it to a show and um the reaction the organizer came and
54:22
asked me if I could uh remove it because it was really upsetting a lot of people
54:27
and at the time I was like what what are you talking about like it's art you know I'm I'm freely expressing the but then
54:35
you know you mature and you understand that you still have to be pragmatic in
54:40
terms of how you move forward you know um people are at these venues not
54:48
necessarily to take part in your pain or or in your angs but to to to find a
54:53
certain degree of uh pleasure and you know the painting was creating a kind of
55:01
it was shaking people up to the point where they were not comfortable and so I never did it again only because I
55:06
understood that I don't necessarily have to put everything out there that I feel
55:11
you know and so I create two bodies of work I create the work at home where you know when I'm feeling tormented when I'm
55:17
feeling you know angst driven you know I pour it all into this piece but not to
55:23
say that this piece is hidden but there are certain venues that are specific for that particular piece let's say if I
55:29
have a gallery show well when you come to a gallery show it's my show so you know just you take whatever it's there
55:35
you take whatever you get I'm not going to censor myself at a gallery show because it's my expression but when I go
55:42
to these public venues I have to be a little bit more circumspect about you
55:48
know the kind of work that I put out not to mention the fact that I'm also trying to make a living at it right so and you
55:55
don't want to have confrontation at every turn in your booth having to explain your pain and the source of the
56:03
pain that is you know across many people
56:08
that is depicted in your work so it's like picking the time and place to share that kind of work absolutely and it
56:15
becomes a little bit of a distraction as well as a spectacle yeah and and and
56:21
that's not necessarily why I'm out there you know what I mean but I try not to censor myself so I create
56:29
this other body of work that is somewhat private and I have collectors private collectors who that's what they want to
56:36
see and so you know um when I have like a solo show in Atlanta whatever I send
56:42
out my invitations people come and they support what I do but it's not necessarily something that is um
56:48
accessible to the public at large you know so yeah that that's how that works
56:53
but as far as process is concerned you know I I go from moment to moment I
56:58
don't really work with sketches in my mind or whatever I I I find that
57:05
spontaneity going from moment to moment and creating work that I consider to be
57:10
Spirit driven that's basically it you know in terms of processing you know I
57:16
find cloth I find you know like a piece of drop cloth and I'll go outside and I'll smear it with mud and I'll spray
57:22
all over it and then I I I like aging things you know even things that are new I like adding certain patinas to them
57:30
and so on so you know it's it's kind of a mixture of all kinds of a form of alchemy if you will okay um do you feel
57:38
like you have to get into a real uh particular emotional spiritual state to
57:44
start your work or is it so accessible to you that you could basically just step into your studio and it's readily
57:50
at hand for you to have that creative flow happen
57:56
my daily practice is like the pages of a of a thick book each page is so delicate
58:04
and so thin but the practice of doing it day after day after day you know the
58:09
book begins to get thicker and thicker and thicker and so someone seeing the finished product will think that you sat
58:15
there and you did it all at once or how brilliant you are but some of those pages are not as profound as other Pages
58:22
which means the days that you wake up and you don't necessarily want to do it but there's a lesson in that particular
58:28
day for you yeah there's a lesson sometimes that says how badly do you want to express yourself or what is it
58:35
that is holding you back and why are you feeling this way why are you anxious you know and you still have to find a way to
58:41
work through those days so for me it's a practice it's a lifestyle it's not just
58:46
a way of making a living it's it's it's it's it's a lifestyle and so I might add
58:52
with a lot of black artists throughout the world are brilliant people but have died without the recognition that they
58:59
should have gotten but they were so driven by the need or the compulsion to
59:05
create that it didn't matter and they're gone but the work Still Remains behind to inspire and I think the most
59:11
inspiring work sometimes are the ones that you didn't feel like you wanted to do and so you did it and you got over
59:17
that obstacle and now it it's there to inspire Generations you just said something that
59:24
I think I understand but I want to flush it out a little bit you said so many black artists because perhaps of their
59:31
race they weren't being acknowledged or recognized for their skill and talent until after they've passed in this
59:37
current day this current time is that what you're saying for example in africah you know you you have some of
59:46
the most brilliant African artists who have since passed on top price for their
59:51
work might be $100,000 MH I auction and then you look
59:57
at a European artist or some artist who lives in the west who does the same work
1:00:03
or might have even copied that work we never hear of them for example Picasso
1:00:08
you know he he himself said uh great artist steel poor artist copy was his
1:00:13
code okay he definitely leaned very heavily some might even says he has
1:00:18
stolen the cubism Out of Africa but he got the credit he was considered the father of Cub
1:00:25
right but for the early Africans who experimented and brought cubism to
1:00:31
the four nobody has heard about them we don't even know who they are and so they're like swept off in the dust heap
1:00:38
of history but he gets all the credit for
1:00:43
discovering cubism so that's what I I mean it's a form of institutional racism
1:00:48
for sure and it's a way of um you know just kind of belittling or are
1:00:54
completely ignoring the contributions of black artists to the development as art
1:01:01
as a whole you know and and and so I kind of feel like some of those artists
1:01:07
while they were creating they realized that there's a great likelihood that nobody will ever hear of them or even
1:01:13
know of their contributions but they did it anyway because they're driven by an urge that goes beyond just recognition
1:01:21
right you know the recognition is good but that should not be the thing that drives you you know the the the urge to
1:01:27
create is what should drive you at the same time the recognition helps you to make a living and support yourself and
1:01:33
support your family and right you know um enjoy some of life's Comforts so yeah
1:01:38
so in in spite of like the struggle and the not being recognized that
1:01:45
art that process was more of an authentic Place yeah authenticity is the
1:01:52
hook for you and perhaps in the other examples you're talking about you know
1:01:58
as an artist you have to find what really inspires you and you know I I try
1:02:03
my best never to knock people's creative process because not everybody wants necessarily to go deep or you know be
1:02:12
provocative or whatever some people just like Beauty they just want something that will make the house uh feel light
1:02:20
and beautiful right I guess that kind of work is commonly described as home decor
1:02:26
but there's room for that too because again life is not always about looking into the abyss some people like you know
1:02:33
things that are easy to understand and color coordinated and all of that and
1:02:39
much respect to them but for me personally I like to go a little bit deeper I like to look into the abyss I
1:02:46
like to you know I challenge myself I I I create work that if you were to put it
1:02:52
over the fireplace it might not be considered to be polite art and that's
1:02:57
okay too and and and so you know the trick is to be authentic to who you are
1:03:03
and um to be respectful of other people's work and to understand that we all have uh different different
1:03:11
functions we all have a different role we all have a different responsibility as artists some people like to do things
1:03:17
that are deeply political I've done that too but I'm not trying to die on that
1:03:22
Hill okay you know I also do work that I consider even Whimsical I like doing
1:03:28
Whimsical stuff from time to time so you know you just have to find what makes
1:03:34
you want to wake up in the morning that's how I try to live my life sometimes when we talk about our process
1:03:41
and what is important to us we feel like it is somehow perhaps a statement on
1:03:49
what we think all like let's say art or what what is valid art or good art or whatever and that isn't the case it's
1:03:57
it's usually just talking about ourselves in the Direction Where We want to go so sometimes it's hard to be fully
1:04:03
open about how we feel about things because we're like we don't want to offend artist X because they do a
1:04:08
different process than what we do sort of thing you know it would be naive not
1:04:13
to admit there's a certain degree of elitism in art you know
1:04:19
where sometimes tend to look down on the creative process of others you know I've
1:04:27
had so many people that come to my booth you know I ask them I said so are you an artist and they're like oh no no no I
1:04:33
couldn't even draw draw a blister from a hot eye or and I'm not you know I'm not an artist and and I say how do you know
1:04:40
and they're like well you know I just I don't have any kind of artistic inclination or whatever and I I I try to
1:04:47
tell as many people as I can that you have a voice you don't have to trust try
1:04:54
to be a a Monae or a a Picasso you know it's not about really being
1:05:01
internationally famous or like a Ratliff Bailey or a Jacob Lawrence you know even
1:05:07
if all you can do is draw a line draw the best line you can it is your line and somebody
1:05:13
who understands what a nicely drawn line Looks like will find some kind of
1:05:20
comfort in that line that you drew it's not a compettion I it's not saying well
1:05:26
if I paint nobody's going to like it you like it and so look at it as a form of
1:05:32
therapy for you you know we all have different ways of expressing
1:05:37
ourselves and you know I look at a guy like John duet you know he just gets his
1:05:42
paintbrush and he in the moment just makes these circles that you look at and think a three-year-old could do it but
1:05:49
yes a three-year-old could do it because du said what inspir ired him was that he
1:05:55
would go to these elementary schools or for want of a better word kindergarten
1:06:00
and he would buy the the work from these little three and four year olds and he would take it home and he would study it
1:06:08
and that was what inspired him because you realized that that that work is coming from a place of in a sense that
1:06:15
has not yet been corrupted you know by by the need to make money and commerce
1:06:20
and all of that don't don't get me wrong I'm not I I I think body deserves to make a good living at it yeah but the
1:06:27
reality is that not not everybody does but you shouldn't let that stop you find something that gives your spirit that
1:06:35
freedom of creation something that is Uniquely Yours so that when you have left this life you would have left your
1:06:42
fingerprint on the wall of life to say that I was here you know what I mean so it's not so much about being famous or
1:06:49
anything like that it's just about breaking out of the expectations
1:06:55
of others and just basically freeing yourself to do something that that that will free you up even if it's a stick
1:07:01
figure anything you know get paints and just splash it on a piece of board of paper canvas whatever and look at that
1:07:09
almost as as your own love letter or as a love letter to yourself so you know I
1:07:16
I I I think this sense of elitism that is that lives in the murkiest part of
1:07:22
the art world had people questioning themselves as to whether
1:07:28
they have a voice or whether they are good enough to be heard if you're good
1:07:34
enough to breathe you're good enough to be heard right and so I I try I try to encourage as many people as I can to say
1:07:41
find something that really makes you want to wake up in the mornings and use that as a repository for your
1:07:48
frustrations for your joys for the happiness you feel for the Gratitude you feel all of that pour pour it into that
1:07:55
thing whether it's a song whether it's a poem whether it's a painting whatever
1:08:00
find that thing that becomes your voice one of the things that I find
1:08:06
interesting is you said you are a writer and you are a visual artist it seems
1:08:12
like the writing serves to enter like mythology into some of your pieces and I
1:08:20
find the subjects of a lot of your pieces super interesting like you were telling a story about a a piece where
1:08:28
there was a man in the image of a spider and I believe you refer to that
1:08:33
mythological creature as the Nancy am I understanding that right or do I remember that
1:08:38
correctly a ncy a Nancy yes a Nancy okay and tell me about it so I grew up
1:08:44
hearing a Nancy stories in Jamaica but I later found out that it actually comes
1:08:49
out of Africa okay and it's just about a guy who he's a little bit of a trickster
1:08:55
you know he's a spider you know half spider half man and there's lots of
1:09:01
stories about a NC um in the folklore of Jamaica and I suspect the Caribbean but
1:09:07
most definitely in Africa which is where the story originated okay but to give you an example of how um he may appear
1:09:16
tricky but there is depth in his deception and there's virtue in his
1:09:22
deception so for example one of the uh tenants of a ncy is play the fool to
1:09:29
catch the wise play the fool to catch the wise well what does that
1:09:34
mean sometimes you have to appear naive stupid out of touch for people to reveal
1:09:42
themselves to you because if they know you're smart and they kind of sit up and they put forward their best self but if
1:09:50
they think you're stupid then you're more likely to see the cracks you're
1:09:55
more likely to to understand if they're being genuine or if they're being hypocritical because they don't think
1:10:02
that you have the capacity to see through the facade they don't think you
1:10:07
have the capacity to see past the mass that they wear and so sometimes it's not you know you're in a crowd it's not a
1:10:14
crowd of people you want to impress you don't necessarily have to do a lot of talking just sit there and let them think you're dumb and you probably learn
1:10:21
a lot more than if if if you intimidate them by showing them how smart you are right and so you know for me I find a
1:10:31
Nancy to be a brilliant being yeah I like the idea that people
1:10:37
will see me let's say at shows and they'll come up and they'll say is this your work yeah it's is that really your
1:10:44
work yeah it is why do you think it's not H oh well you're kind of clever you
1:10:51
know like I'm some kind of train monke here or something like that you know they they become very condescending
1:10:57
really you know but it helps me to understand who they are and and and the
1:11:03
perceptions they have of people who are let's say of a different color or a different background you know what I'm
1:11:09
saying and so I know how to move when I'm dealing with these people but you know like you had asked me about being a
1:11:16
lawyer I don't that's not something I lead with because that's not even relevant in my life as it is you know
1:11:23
I'm a working artist that's what I am but I also have a sense of perception I and discernment I see things for what
1:11:31
they are and I have a gift of understanding people's
1:11:36
nuances very quickly and I think that's part of the Anansi folklore that
1:11:42
inspires me okay so another piece I I found a lot of deep connection to that I
1:11:49
was hoping maybe you could talk a little bit about and that was the piece that you have the the boxer's gloves and the
1:11:55
title of it or the writing on the piece itself it says bread for pressure would
1:12:00
you be interested in talking about about that piece yes uh again as a um artist
1:12:06
of color or black artist if you will you know um and not just as an artist but I
1:12:12
just as somebody who is in many respects considered an
1:12:18
outsider because you know I was born elsewhere I came here and there's some people who
1:12:24
even among my own people who will uh kind of see me as not American enough
1:12:29
you know I'll find that sometimes even though the word blacklisted might not be
1:12:35
used that you get excluded from certain things because of color because of uh
1:12:42
nationality all of these things it it it it it forces one to develop a thick
1:12:49
outer skin and to use those arrows or or
1:12:55
use those uh weapons that are used against you you turn them
1:13:00
into I want to say a positive experience but as the old saying goes through you
1:13:05
know you use the lemons to make lemonade and you strengthen yourself and it makes
1:13:11
you resilient and formidable because there are some people
1:13:17
who when they go up against pressure the spirit gets broken and so they give up
1:13:23
easily okay and that includes people from every background you know there's
1:13:28
some people who can only take so much and then they're like ah forget it and they move away whatever I don't feel I
1:13:35
have the luxury to do that you know I feel as if especially to create an
1:13:41
example for my kids I have to be formidable I have to learn to push through I have to use those lemons and
1:13:47
make the sweetest lemonade I know how to make and so you know that's what bread for pressure is you know know I have I
1:13:54
my my upbringing in Jamaica from you know relatively humble
1:13:59
background maybe in some people's minds not expected to grow up to be much but
1:14:05
still forging ahead still um trying to
1:14:10
as I said earlier leave my fingerprint on the wall of Life yeah still being able to support my family and make sure
1:14:17
my kids are properly educated uh make sure my family has options
1:14:24
you know all of these things come as a result of um being that fighter you know
1:14:30
pound for pound round for round uh being bred for pressure and so
1:14:36
that's kind of where that comes from basically never giving up and not just for me but I've learned from you know a
1:14:43
lot of what I'm saying to you here it's not just
1:14:49
me gleaning these lessons out of the atmosphere or whatever I have a wife is extremely I find her
1:14:56
very inspiring not because she's my wife but if I had met her on different circumstances I still would have found
1:15:02
her to be very inspiring she's very strong she doesn't talk as much as I do
1:15:08
she has that silent resilience Spirit about her and you know there are times I go into very dark moods but she's always
1:15:15
very light and very playful she says to me she's always wanting to go on walks
1:15:21
you know let's go for a walk here let's go for a walk here and I'm H you know I go to the gym I don't want to go walk
1:15:27
you know what come on let's go walking and at one point I used to be like you know see it as a chore you know we go
1:15:33
walking two three miles or whatever and I'm like why are we in the middle of the Jungle why are we in the woods or
1:15:39
whatever where we end up when are we GNA get there yeah and then her thing was
1:15:45
she didn't say it but by watching her I realized that I tend to be destination
1:15:51
oriented her walks is not about destination her walks are about exploration you know she doesn't really
1:15:58
have a destination she she's just exploring she's very much into nature it used to be the favorite part of the Walk
1:16:04
for me was heading back to the car and and and for her you know it was just
1:16:10
finding Beauty in a Little Rock she's from a a nation that's called the Navajo
1:16:15
okay and uh they're out in the southwest and one of the Navajo sayings is walk in
1:16:22
Beauty and for a long time I didn't understand the heck what I meant walking Beauty yeah but as I'm older now and
1:16:28
I've studied her over these years I realized that she finds Beauty in the simplest things she laughs easily she
1:16:35
has never had a bad word to say about anybody she's just always even to my annoyance she's always so Zen you know
1:16:43
when I'm like well why aren't you screaming or whatever she's like everything is going to be cool or whatever and it took me a long time to
1:16:50
understand that so she epitomizes someone who has learned over the years how to literally walk in
1:16:56
Beauty in everything that she does and so I kind of watch her and I've learned
1:17:02
from her over the years how to you know not worry about so much getting to the
1:17:08
destination and heading back but to just explore one step at a time and you know take life in small doses you know what
1:17:16
I'm saying yeah so amazing to have that in your life I would say as influential
1:17:22
in your work and and in your overall kind of thought process it sounds like
1:17:28
yes you're absolutely right this is might sound a little bit corny and yeah I am corny at times but corny is
1:17:37
fine again as as I said to you early on I I didn't have a mom I loved my
1:17:42
grandmother deeply and they're now both gone on there are times I feel as if
1:17:48
they have come back to me through my wife wow you know because she has that kind kind of spirit about her always
1:17:54
patient and trust me I'm not always the easiest person to live with you know I can be moody and you know I go into
1:18:01
these dark phases at times and all of that and impatient at times I've learned
1:18:06
so much from watching her that I feel almost like it's my ancestors those who
1:18:12
loved me and wanted to see me and my family do well they have come back around and they have used her as kind of
1:18:19
a guiding tool for me you know and I consider myself if nothing else on my
1:18:24
deathbed I I will know for sure that I have stumbled a lot in this
1:18:30
lifetime but the one thing I am absolutely sure of without any doubt in
1:18:36
my mind that I found the woman that is most compatible for me the woman who has
1:18:41
taught me how to see life in a much more positive and you know just a beautiful
1:18:48
soul you know an uncommon soul and I I think I've I have been fortunate and
1:18:54
blessed in that respect if nothing else if nothing else if I were to die tomorrow I know for sure that I had a
1:19:02
good marriage wow that gives me the the inspiration to keep moving forward that's really beautiful Alice sounds
1:19:08
like an amazing influence for you and for the world she is well as we sign off
1:19:15
here I notice when I've gone through your social media and when we've communicated back and forth through text
1:19:23
that you you end your your sign offs with the phrase one love and that
1:19:29
interests me I'm I'm curious what that means to you it's it's a term that's been used in Jamaica for long before Bob
1:19:36
Mar it's kind of a rastari and greeting but he popularized it I I once had a
1:19:42
girlfriend who hated when I used it she was like oh it's so corny or whatever what I think she did not
1:19:50
understand that it's not just a cool thing to say it's not just a trendy
1:19:56
thing to say it's not just an uh idealistic expression of whatever right
1:20:03
it basically in my mind anyway it says one
1:20:10
Creator One Planet one
1:20:15
family one love it's all of it I probably get in trouble for saying this but I'm going to
1:20:21
say it anyway um uh racism for the most part can be profitable there's money to be made in
1:20:28
separating people and having them suspicious of each other okay and if you get over the bridge of learning to speak
1:20:35
with people who look different from You Who Come From a Different background then a lot of the issues that we
1:20:42
experience the negative issues that we experience it's probably never going to completely disappear but at least you
1:20:48
will have some level of empathy for you know your brother or your sister
1:20:55
regardless of where they're from and if you scrape the politics and everything away now mind you as black people yes we
1:21:02
do need to get together and be United and to stand as one voice because Lord
1:21:09
knows we have been brutalized we have been exploited we have been overlooked
1:21:15
all of these things but at the end of the day if you scrape all of that away
1:21:21
it's one Humanity a race is kind of an artificial construct if you can get to the point
1:21:28
where you can see us as just one family let's say tomorrow we got invaded by
1:21:33
aliens from space and they're zapping people and we're not necessarily think oh he's up a white man or he's up we're
1:21:40
thinking well as you know a family of this planet of Earth you know we have to do something to defend ourselves right
1:21:47
right there's always profit to be made in division among black people you look at those who are are light color dark
1:21:55
skin whatever you go India you look at the the difference between the Muslims
1:22:00
and right the Hindus and you know and it just goes on and on and on there's always separation and so there are those
1:22:08
who are able to exploit that separation and to and and and make it very profitable by the concept which is known
1:22:15
as divide and conquer now I'm not naive I'm not saying that we're all tomorrow
1:22:21
going to hold hands and sing We Shall overcome and all of that I'm not saying that but you have to have a higher
1:22:28
ideal than just looking at people as other than that's just what to me what one
1:22:36
love represents okay one love you know just a family you know we're one family
1:22:42
on this planet well don't you think like you're saying we will never heal as a
1:22:48
world if we keep operating from the pain of the past and you're right that does
1:22:53
sound like a TR kind of like polyana kind of thought but there has been power
1:23:01
in keeping marginalized groups fighting amongst themselves so that that they
1:23:06
can't rise up and so I feel like in your explanation it really allows healing to
1:23:14
happen and for Change and whatever that means it's a step forward as opposed to
1:23:20
a step backward absolutely I mean you know what is the likely outcome of this
1:23:27
division you know some would say equality yes I agree equality uh
1:23:33
everyone wants to be treated uh in a positive and equal way you know everyone
1:23:38
wants their children to be well fed and have a safe place to sleep you know we
1:23:43
all kind of want the same things yes we have been exploited make no mistake
1:23:48
Africa has been literally want of a better word plundered but at some point
1:23:55
we have to realize that even if in a perfect world we were all to get together for those of us who want to
1:24:01
find something to fight about there will always be room for division there will
1:24:07
always be room to make your brother your enemy and you know we have to get beyond
1:24:13
that because if we can't transcend that it's all going to be chaos you know it's going to be chaos it will never end it
1:24:19
will always be something else and you know I I know I might come off as get
1:24:24
too naive too idealistic but what is the alternative you know where where where
1:24:30
where's the solution I don't know man I know again I'm probably going to get get
1:24:36
a lot of flack for saying this but so be it you know that's right I look at my wife for example she's a she's of A
1:24:43
different race than I am and yet she for me she's the kindest human being I've ever run into I look at my children
1:24:49
they're biracial at least uh three of them are M I love them as much as more
1:24:54
than my own life you know and I try to raise children that are productive and that are tolerant and that will just
1:25:01
kind of accept people for who they are and but maybe that's not trendy and
1:25:07
maybe one day we look back and realize that there is something to be said for
1:25:12
those who try to transcend this kind of tribalism if you will
1:25:17
definitely well we've touched on a lot of really amazing topics here and I
1:25:23
really appreciate your forthcoming and from the heart conversation this this
1:25:28
has really been a a meaningful one for me so thank you so much Athlon for for
1:25:34
joining me and and sharing everything about you with with me and the listeners so this has been a really great
1:25:40
conversation thank you well I thank you for having me if I'm guilty of rambling please forgive me I you know I get
1:25:46
caught up in my thoughts sometimes and I tend to ramble on but uh my intentions are good right rambling is good I've
1:25:54
been known to ramble I thank you for taking the time to uh give me a chance to express myself
1:26:01
I enjoy your podcast very much uh and I will make sure to spread the word so
1:26:07
that people can uh get a part of this wisdom that you're you're imparting thank you again thank you so much man
1:26:14
all right bye peace great talk with athl and Clark Douglas thank you so much for for bringing his voice to the airwaves
1:26:20
and and letting uh the folks out there understand and learn a little bit really
1:26:26
killer talk I I could not have enjoyed that more thank you it's cool at the end there how we kind of circled back to a
1:26:33
theme that we talked about last year at this time right which is that idea of
1:26:39
you know the art is not a competition right and it feels like this time of year it weighs heavy on a lot of us
1:26:47
because we're getting those applications back and we're trying to draft our season and our year and we start to feel
1:26:53
a little bit like that fomo that we're missing out on opportunities we wish we
1:26:59
could have done or gotten into and he really did a good job of laying that whole concept out of just doing
1:27:06
ourselves and letting that shine yeah I I think that's an important uh message for this time of year especially kind of
1:27:13
closing out our year on the podcast and I mean we're pretty much jumping right back into it next year but at the same
1:27:20
time you know I feel like in industry more than just about any other the art
1:27:25
industry it really does have an endcap uh of the year the year is the years are
1:27:30
different you know yeah what you do is going to be different where you go is going to be different the shows you
1:27:36
decide to do versus the shows that decide you can um it just is what it is
1:27:42
and and it's up to you it's like oh well this is the year I drove from you know Miami to California uh this is the year
1:27:49
that I I I didn't do as many shows so it's it's always interesting to to think
1:27:55
back on the year in review really and and see how how it did and how you do
1:28:01
things differently or how you see yourself doing things and I'd like to say that this is going to be a unique
1:28:07
year for me but it turns out it's going to be the same year I had last year where I'm basically recovering for four
1:28:14
or five months and my first show of the year is going to be in April so wow those two years in a row are totally
1:28:21
different than how I've operated all the other 23 years of of doing our art fair business
1:28:28
yeah we've been working on stocking up everything we're going to need so that
1:28:33
our first show we're ready to walk right out the door which is different than what we did last year I mistakenly
1:28:40
thought that during this recovery period I'd be able to make work for those first few shows yeah I'm not doing that this
1:28:47
year when I shut my studio down we are going to be ready for our first show in April that's plan all right you're going
1:28:53
to be chomping at the bit to record a bunch of interviews I bet and breathing down my neck or maybe I will become
1:29:01
remarkably Adept at doing nothing we we'll stay tuned and see what happens that's how I that's how I like to live
1:29:07
do it take up meditation and uh yeah whatever it takes to get through Hey
1:29:13
listen folks we do have one more episode uh left in the year we're going to do some just kind of like I talked about
1:29:20
just do kind of a year in review you and and talk about some things uh some some hot topics if you do have ideas and
1:29:27
things like that log on and share those with us we'll have a little thread there on our Facebook page also if you're in a
1:29:35
a a typing mood um we are trying and and hitting our goals in growth for the
1:29:41
podcast it's invaluable when you share the episodes with your friends as well as uh posting reviews on on Apple that
1:29:49
is a way of beating the uh the digital monkey is into submission so the meta
1:29:54
algorithms will help us out so way get the word out man yeah all right well
1:30:01
next time you hear me I might be um a little doy on my painkillers but we'll
1:30:06
be good we'll be good so have happy holidays everyone and we will we'll talk to you before the end of the year sounds
1:30:11
good this podcast is brought to you by the National Association of Independent Artists the website is nii artists.org
1:30:19
also sponsored by zap that's zapplication.org and while you're
1:30:25
at it find us on social media and engage in these conversations be sure to subscribe to this podcast to be notified
1:30:32
when we release new episodes oh and if you like the show we'd love it if you would give us your five-star rating and
1:30:38
offer up your most creative review on your podcast streaming service see you next [Music]
1:30:50
time



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