Legit Roadie/ Rob Matthews

Working Artists! You are not alone! Listen to these entertaining and inspirational podcast conversations with working artists.

 Rob Matthews https://www.hiddenspringdesigns.com/home moved around a lot in his youth which fostered a comfort level with new experiences and adventure. His teenage years found him smack in the middle of a thriving music scene around Los Angeles. He crossed paths with many famous musicians that shaped his own artistic career as a mixed media artist. Once Rob aqcuired his VW bus in the 1970’s, he stumbled into becoming a “Legit Roadie” by transporting band members and equipment to gigs. In this conversation, Rob recounts his numerous experiences with the likes of Steve McQueen, Willie Nelson, and Mamma Cass.


Visual artists Douglas Sigwarth https://www.sigwarthglass.com/ and Will Armstrong http://www.willarmstrongart.com/ co-host and discuss topics affecting working artists. Each episode is a deep dive into a conversation with a guest artist who shares their unique experiences as an independent professional artist. In today’s preamble, the hosts talk about being “invited,” van build outs, and the book, “Stolen Focus,” by Johann Hari.


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Music  "Walking" by Oliver Lear
Business inquiries at theoliverlear@gmail.com
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Transcript

0:00
[Music]
0:11
welcome to the independent artist podcast sponsored by the National Association of Independent Artists also
0:18
sponsored by zapplication I'm will Armstrong and I'm a mixed media artist I'm Douglas sigworth glass blower join
0:25
our conversations with professional working artists
0:32
congratulations artists Oh goodie what is it what is it you are
0:37
invited to listen to The Independent artist podcast this week thanks for joining us come on I wanted something
0:44
more you know I got invited Douglas uh just now to uh record I got an email that said you're invited and I didn't
0:51
see who sent it and it was you I know again you know I get so easily excited
0:56
when I see that congratulations I think okay what major show have I just gotten into and then congratulations we're
1:03
getting ready to jury what that's not a congratulations you have the Good
1:08
Fortune of applying to our show they know what they're doing they
1:15
God love them bless their hearts you know what they should do will they should do congratulations you've started reading
1:21
the art fair packet you gave me a hard time this week
1:26
I was you know true to my form yeah we're both getting ready to do the same show linta is coming up you know it's
1:33
it's funny a couple of different things about that but the funny part is like I asked you like five or six different
1:39
questions about it like a oh yeah total Noob and uh I'm like it
1:46
says we have to show up on Tuesday but the show's not until Thursday like what happens if I show up at Wednesday you're like I don't know just email her just do
1:52
your do the thing but I realized I was like first of all you you accused me of
1:58
wishing I had a packet no I just wanted you to read it no for you and and offer
2:04
to do some of the things you didn't want to do that's right tell me the four things that I need to know because
2:10
that's all I need to what are the G what's the GPS coordinates Douglas I need to know but I realized and this is
2:15
really really weird I have not done a new show like a show that I haven't done before right like a new market I think
2:23
in six years yeah that's kind of a odd feeling isn't it it's nuts right and
2:29
that crazy kind of feel like we've done them all and if we're not doing them it's because we don't want to do them
2:34
you know like oh there's there's one to I should try that I haven't tried before or something that's a whole whole new
2:40
thing yeah my previous body of work my ex-wife and I made that that hit a certain market and travel around to
2:47
those shows and now the body work that I'm working on now then I've been doing other other shows that are a little bit
2:53
differently so I I feel like I've done every freaking show you know everything so it's weird to do except this one well
3:00
there's like four you know there's some there's some I mean there's a ton of them out there I'm sure that I haven't done but there's only four that I want
3:07
to do there you go well speaking of getting ready for this show I I mentioned on the
3:14
last episode that I was building out my van and so I've been working on that for
3:20
the last couple of weeks how's that going well it's done and there's kind of two things with it the first thing is
3:26
I'm not fully packed yet so I'm wondering if I'm creating Organization for quantity like am I going to lose
3:34
what I can actually bring because I'm trying to you know organize things into compartments and make my life a little
3:41
easier with unloading so we'll find out on that one once I get to the end of this week and have to actually load it up so you haven't loaded it up yet for
3:48
it's the display but now it's it's you know the work and that's obviously the most important thing is if I can't bring
3:54
the work I want to bring then I'm going to be pissed you know right do you ever worry about the the load like what what
4:00
the kind of van that you have and how many 2x4s you've just built the load in with and how heavy that stuff is I have
4:07
I I had to I had to shut that one off of my brain though because there's only too many hamster wheels I can run down
4:13
before I turn into a crazy person but I wanted to say about the the buildout I I
4:19
thought to myself in the process I thought there's two ways I can approach this I can approach this buildout like
4:25
an artist or I can approach it like an architect right you know there there is a obvious difference an architect gets
4:32
out their grid paper they they sketch everything out into little compartments and boxes and decide what stuff they're
4:38
going to go buy and and they do it they make a plan I sat and stared at the
4:44
cargo section of my van I'm like yeah I think that's where I want the panels to go and I look around my garage and see
4:50
what materials I got and I just started building you know just huh committed
4:56
yeah just started okay and you are you happy with it I mean everything seems to work out so far so far I'm feeling
5:03
pretty good about it yeah we were talking last week about uh my example for for doing a big build out was uh
5:08
John Hecker John and Pat Hecker just a lovely couple that we we talked about last week just briefly but yeah John
5:15
texted me this morning was like hey thanks for the shout out also I'm in the van rebuilding it out to make a double
5:21
fit so um yeah it never ends you know you're always you're always tweaking and
5:26
and making sure something happens I me personally I been renting the last couple of trips out I you know don't
5:33
want to bore you with rebr bringing up the the most tedious of all topics the the van breakdowns or the truck
5:39
breakdowns but I just can't trust it anymore and and um I've got to have a I
5:44
have to have a trustworthy vehicle so I've been renting and that's felt pretty good to have a brand new van every time
5:51
can't be building out on a rental no you also you know you can't put a a bulkhead
5:56
in a rental either so that's that's nerve-wracking so so they don't come standard with a bulkhead divider on
6:02
those uh-uh nothing just a big old big old empty they got they got a apple play
6:08
I can play my my radio there you go that's using my fingers actually that's pretty awesome I'm I'm a big proponent
6:15
of that now just just zero contact and it'll read you your texts for you over the over the the thing and you know so
6:22
get a new radio well you just got back from a little trip you want to talk about that at all yeah man I did I
6:30
just got back from we took a little break and went to see Nick Cave the musical artist not the visual artist
6:36
that does all the intricate costumes and and things but Nick Cave of Nick Cave and the bad seeds Okay so with one
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accompanist Colin Greenwood the bass player from radio head they're taking kind of a break so um just those those
6:50
two guys and just really kind of intimate versions of his songs just done on grand piano and and um just a really
6:58
incredible night of music but we took some time and stayed in a really nice hotel cashing in the hotel points and
7:04
took a break saw some museums and cool um this was in LA right I don't think you've said that Los Angeles yeah and I
7:12
it's funny I I mean there are parts of LA that that I don't like but um not
7:17
many I la works for me I really really love the city and you know different
7:22
parts of it and even kind of the Seedy shitty side of it I kind of like too
7:28
nice well plus it fits your rock star Persona there will you're your Hollywood
7:33
movie star maybe I I'm going to move to LA movie star all right there's not
7:39
enough hair on my head for that those days are gone sigworth uh where are we going next we're boring the people the good people
7:46
out there what are we going talk about the good the good listeners out there so Douglas this is kind of interesting and
7:51
I don't want to get preachy on this one at all because um the book is not preachy at all but uh I've been reading
7:58
this book that my wife wife suggested by Johan Hari it's called stolen Focus why
8:03
you can't pay attention some of the passages in the book uh I have to kind of turn off and and sit with the book
8:10
itself and take my time with it but I have found and you know I'm 53 and you
8:16
can blame it on that we both the same age here but this particular book breaks
8:21
down attention and focus on our work and
8:27
our own uh kind of a like our own attention deficit that we're all kind of going through a lot of this kind of kind
8:34
of rang true for me when I started reading about it and then immediately made me feel guilty but just talking
8:40
about like what the relationship that we have with our phones does to our
8:45
attention span totally um there was a little blip that we we' heard on a on a separate podcast where he he was
8:52
interviewing somebody else and they were talking to him about what it takes when you are interrupted and what it does to
9:00
your kind of your your gosh your blood pressure your attention your ability to
9:05
focus like if you have your phone in your back pocket and I don't know whether you are even able to do this but
9:12
I'm painting I get a text how long it takes you to get your focus back and on
9:17
average they're saying it takes people like 26 minutes once they're interrupted
9:22
to get their focus back or if you're living through this this particular kind of thing how often you are interrupted
9:30
and if you ever are able to get that deep focus back and they focus on this kind of like you know the the deep focus
9:37
when you're working on something that you love and you look up and three or four hours have gone by as opposed to
9:44
the 25 minutes that you feel probably have like that kind of focus and whether we even have that anymore so uh that's
9:51
there there's your um independent artist podcast reading list for uh for the week
9:57
if you want to check out a book called stolen Focus it's fascinating it's incredibly well researched it's also
10:03
kind of terrifying So it's talking about modern day kind of like this what we find ourselves in now with technology
10:10
and how we've given ourselves over to that absolutely and even with like the
10:17
looking at the blue screen does and why we have insomnia at the end of the day looking at our phones triggers uh the
10:25
same kind of light that daylight brings um whereas also like there was another interesting thing that said like after
10:31
you turn your light out and why were immediately like Ping awake and can't go
10:36
to sleep it's this almost like this self-imposed anxiety that we've given ourselves but goes all the way back to
10:43
caveman days like once the lights go out in the sky you're supposed to get a little charge of energy so that you can
10:50
prepare the camp for sleep so that you need that time without the screen
10:55
without the thing and it sounds like God I I was so like like [ __ ] you book cuz I
11:01
have such a dedication and an addiction to my phone oh it's it's tough isn't it
11:06
I mean I have uh this watch that will tell me when stuff's going on too and
11:12
it's crazy you know you'll be just hanging out with friends or with your spouse and all of a sudden you they see
11:17
you look at your watch and they're like did you get a text what's going on
11:22
you know what I mean and it does it pull oh yeah it pulls Focus from what you're in the moment doing right then right so
11:29
like even the shows that say they're going to announce on a certain day and then they don't announce until the very end of the day well they've taken that
11:35
full day yeah because it's like if you don't buy your booth you can't get the right spot you can't do this and it's like it's all timed and it all matters
11:42
so it's true I I think it's a good point so much of the way we handle things is
11:47
so fast-paced and worrying about missing out you know so it's true I have wasted
11:55
entire days waiting for a show to announce because I want a particular spot yeah yeah so you spend an entire
12:01
week looking forward to seeing your kids and then all of a sudden you're like oh my God now I've got to do this thing but
12:06
do we really I don't know it's like your attention is split right your attention is then split from what's important at
12:13
that at that point yeah but at the same time it's all important right it's true
12:18
yeah well uh kind of to go along with that I don't know if this happened to you or to anyone else out there but I'll
12:25
be getting ready you know closing my eyes at night just trying to destru from the world anything that went on that day
12:32
can just go away go off to Slumber and then all of a sudden my eyes go oh [ __ ]
12:38
when is that deadline for blah blah blah you know what I mean we're in this this time frame of all of these deadlines
12:45
that come up on a regular basis yeah and here I am last night in the dark
12:50
flipping through my phone trying to figure out did I remember to apply for show X when is it is the deadline for
12:58
that and I'm like okay good I have two more days or do I apply right now no you're going to sleep right now
13:05
for you know they talk about that in that book it's they talk about the fact that we don't let ourselves kind of
13:11
Daydream anymore uh because we are constantly when there is a time that we can actually Daydream or lose focus on
13:19
things and let our minds wander then we begin to remember the things that were important as part of the day that's
13:25
actually the almost like the REM the rapid eye movement part of the sleep oh
13:31
pattern it's similar to that but in in waking where you let your mind wander and that's where you come up with your
13:37
big Ideas so you have this generation of people that aren't coming up with Big Ideas anymore because they are so
13:44
focused on the next 30 seconds of of oh my god did did this person email oh what's that email what's this what's
13:49
this and and that's kind of what I was bringing up about I felt over the past
13:54
year kind of in a rut for ideas on on artwork and I'm like God and it's kind
14:01
of like I've called it artist's block and leaning back into some older ideas
14:06
are going back to lists and things that I've made and kind of ideating on older ideas but as far as like coming up with
14:13
the new things I've I've tried to put that thing down and start to create more
14:19
and I mean it's it's almost like a a garden that hasn't been weeded and the
14:24
ideas are the weeds coming back up through and I'm kind of like oh [ __ ] I'm starting to come up with new ideas
14:30
already just having deleted goddamn Facebook off of my phone yeah yeah it's
14:35
true we are we're sabotaging our creativity you know yeah I think of it like a pinball machine the lights and
14:41
the blinking on our phones you know it's a god it's a dopamine release actually that's what it is it it gives us a
14:47
little charge right and I feel like you need it for your business but God I hate
14:54
it I don't want to do it anymore you know another and I don't want to talk about this uh too late I've already done
14:59
it talk about this book for the entire Preamble but um yeah another major point
15:04
of this book is that that there is no such thing as multitasking you're never really
15:10
multitasking you're never putting all of it into into one thing it's like you're half assing everything right yeah right
15:18
exactly so it's like a multi-instrumentalist that can't lead on anything so anyway all right that's our
15:25
that's our advice for the week everyone is uh yeah your your I AP book club so
15:31
um read that and get back to me the guy that that reads it is uh fascinating Co
15:36
you know Douglas last week um God it's been like three weeks now honestly but um they have this amazing event called
15:43
Balloon Fiesta and when you're at the movies and they have the you know they scroll the the images and things across
15:50
the screen while you're sitting there like filing in to get your seats you like you you'll see this huge like
15:55
Desert Sky with with balloons in the air and that's that's balloon Fiesta oh and um and and it's in Santa Fe no it's in
16:02
Albuquerque Albuquerque but you've done this for a few years I I right have you gone a couple time okay yeah Susie knew
16:10
about it and um she was like yeah we gotta you know let's do it one time let's take the kids and that's when we
16:16
first moved here so they do this thing called Mass Ascension and it happens at
16:21
daylight like as the sun is coming up they light all of these balloons across
16:26
this huge field m they light up these balloons and just as the sun is rising
16:32
and like it's it's pretty breathtaking I mean it's just incredible and the sun is rising just as the balloons come up and
16:40
the whole Sky fills with balloons and and you're standing in in the areas where they're blowing up these balloons
16:46
they're puffing up and all rising and there's all different kinds of balloons and it's amazing and we figured we'd
16:51
take the kids one time because you have to get up at 3:00 in the morning right and you'd think okay kids aren't going
16:57
to love this early morning thing right yeah they're teenagers right they're teenagers now I got 13 and 15 they want
17:03
to go every year now I mean that's how cool it is that's awesome so uh we're kind of like okay uh but this year I
17:11
realized there's actually an art show really uh there as well and people are
17:17
filing into their space and they're getting cocoa and it's you know 5:00 in the morning the freaking art show is
17:22
already going on like it's a tent full of I don't know but small probably like 80 oh artists and and stuff and and is
17:30
it all balloon themed is it certain themed no I mean there of course there are uh you know there are balloon themed
17:37
stuff they might be somebody you know there you know you kind of walk through and you're like I think I've seen that
17:42
guy cool but it has to be people that are willing to start the show like think about you know those early morning day
17:51
of load in you know show starts at 99 you're there at 5:00 4:00 these guys are
17:57
there all night they're like ready to go at 5: in the morning or 3 in the morning or whatever it is like open yeah it's
18:03
crazy it was just really weird I'm like oh [ __ ] I know what you do you know I kind of walk in I felt like a a spy I'm
18:10
like I know what you had to do it was crazy though well I have an in that
18:16
actually reminds me of something when we first moved out this way in Hudson River
18:21
Falls area about geez how long has it been now 24 years ago uh we were one of
18:27
the only houses out here there were I mean it wasn't like a neighborhood like
18:32
it is now it was like one house here then you go a mile and there's a house over there and and so there's a
18:39
balloon now that you said the name of the one in Albuquerque that's the only name I could remember but there's one
18:45
locally here that they they launch in Hudson Wisconsin and we didn't know about it until our first winter living
18:54
here they start descending from the sky guy into the fields all around our house
19:01
and it was super magical oh my God that's so cool it was so cool our kids were five and three maybe and they're
19:10
running out we're running outside going to see the balloons and everything and
19:15
that was such a moving experience for us that we wanted to create pieces that had that sense of like inflating and and
19:22
growing and some of the big spheres that we make are inspired from that memory
19:28
from that moment Ah that's awesome that's really cool so that kind of took me back that you brought that up yeah
19:34
and if you'd been looking at your phone you would have missed it I would have totally missed it 24 years ago who had a
19:40
phone in their hand back then right right yeah really cool stuff hey um
19:46
speaking of phone in your hand uh I feel like you go to these concerts and and nine times out of 10 you're surrounded
19:51
by people with phones in their hands and yeah this week's uh show uh I'm not apologizing for this in any way but
19:58
he's he's beloved by many of us around the art show world but talking to Rob
20:04
Matthews has been kind of one of my goals because I really wanted to just hear some of his stories and string them
20:11
together in a narrative you know I've heard these stories from him so it was kind of a a selfish uh act like getting
20:17
to share this episode with with all of you guys I mean music is such an important part of my life and especially
20:23
with the the history of it I'm such a nerd as far as like music history and get to hear some of that kind of Laurel
20:30
Canyon meets hate ashberry uh stuff from Rob and and really get down into it it
20:37
just just was a was a real goal of mine with this show well this is one you have to listen to all the way through because
20:43
he tells stories about his interactions with Steve McQueen and and Mama Cass and
20:49
Willie freaking Nelson for crying out loud I mean it went for a jog with Willie it's like it was insane and and
20:57
you know we come from this interesting community of artists and then to have situations like this it just reminds us
21:05
of just how lucky we are to be amongst this community and amongst so many
21:10
interesting people so absolutely I really enjoyed listening to what you guys talked about it was super fun well
21:16
cool let's uh no more burying the lead let's get right to it and talk to Rob Matthews coming out of De Mo Iowa these
21:23
days among many other places but uh here he is this episode of The Independent
21:29
artist podcast is brought to you by zap the digital application service where artists and art festivals connect you
21:36
know Doug I was sitting down and talking with my wife yesterday she had just come in from her studio and she was
21:42
complaining one of the big shows they decided to do a do-it-yourself reinvent the wheel application I hate that hate
21:48
that so much yeah seriously I mean it's like typically an application that would take you 2 minutes on zap all of a
21:54
sudden it's going to take you an hour and a half to reformat all of your images to their specifications it just
22:00
made me think about how easy applying with zap is you just click a few buttons
22:05
you've got your 1920s already formatted and you are good to go exactly so I
22:11
personally appreciate what zap is doing and thanks for not making us reinvent the wheel every single week like we used
22:16
to have to do we have a call to entry from the 57th Street Art Fair in Chicago
22:21
Illinois what I have always enjoyed about those Chicago shows is that they are neighborhood show and 57th Street is
22:29
in the Hyde Park District which is a very affluent neighborhood walking distance to the Obamas you know there's
22:36
some big houses in the area very nice yeah this is happening June 1st and 2nd
22:42
it's the weekend before the Oldtown Arts Festival the hours are totally human 11: to 6: on Saturday Sunday from 10: to
22:49
5:00 that's awesome yeah I love those kind of early spring kind of hours that don't drag on into the night and you
22:55
know what it's an Originals only show and it's the the oldest jured art fair in the Midwest and if you are like me uh
23:02
music speaks directly to your soul the music lineup is presented by Chicago's Premier Blues Club buddy guys Legends so
23:09
you know the music is going to be good the entertainment is going to bring folks out lots of great reasons to apply
23:15
to this show jump on your zap profile save 57th Street artfare to your
23:20
favorites and don't miss the deadline to apply on January
23:25
15th you know what I never ever drink this time of day yeah and I'm drinking
23:32
an elaborate metaphor perfect that's the name of the
23:37
beer how are you man it's good to see you yeah I'm good we just got back from
23:44
a uh pretty epic road trip we only drove 12,000 miles this year for shows so we
23:52
felt that wasn't enough so we threw all the work out of the Sprinter yeah and put another 5200 miles on good God and
24:00
how long just over four weeks okay it was all fun desert Southwest mostly
24:07
that's amazing delivered a piece to La we just got back from La uh we took a little vacation a bit of five day kind
24:13
of thing what are you what are your thoughts on La do you like or you don't like on La well you know I'm pretty much
24:19
a californi right but northern California if I could live in a particular neighborhood in La which
24:26
would either be the arch District right or Santa Barbara or
24:33
Ventura yeah Santa Monica not Santa Barbara sure Manhattan Beach maybe give
24:39
a little give a little Surf Shack and not not ever have to leave and not even own a car I would love it yeah there was
24:46
a restaurant we wanted to hit and we were staying out in Santa Barbara and uh there was a restaurant in town that we
24:51
wanted to hit and it was like you know I had reservations I'd had for a long time uh a girl in the goat
24:58
was the spot I'm like well uh reservations are at 6:30 it's 4:30 now and it says it's a 3-hour drive oh no so
25:06
we're like H how about we just eat around here um instead EXA oh no which I
25:12
don't know I I [ __ ] love it I love La it just it kind of makes sense to me so
25:17
but I lived in San Diego for a pretty long time and basically when you leave San Diego you have to drive through LA
25:24
to get out you know right and there were times this was in the 80s and it would take me four hours to cross La in the
25:31
80s all right um I'm going to set this show up because every time I have talked
25:38
to you Rob I feel like I've gotten a different slice of of history that I
25:44
care about from this country whether it's some kind of musical history or some kind of story that you were there
25:51
or some kind of oh well I uh yeah I was a teenager and and selling weed to Steve McQueen out in the desert
25:58
I just kind of wanted to get some of these stories down on tape and kind of put some of them together to see if they
26:04
made sense in any kind of narrative form so I I kind of want to start from the beginning and and get into some of these
26:12
stories by just asking you where you grew up like you say you're a California boy what where did you grow up I didn't
26:19
I was a total gypsy kid yeah uh literally I I only say California
26:25
because I live there longer than I've lived else but I'm a deeper Southerner than
26:31
all y'all that think I was born in Savannah okay lived in Savannah till I was eight what year
26:38
are we talking about I'm sorry to put an age on you but we just just trying to get a timeline that's that's inevitable
26:44
53 so I'm just a minutes from turning 70 yeah I turned 70 in like two weeks yeah
26:51
well you keep it looking young you know it's uh yeah right right true love will do that to you we're gonna talk about
26:58
that too I owe you a case of pumpkin IPA your favorite pumpkin's not food Rob
27:07
it's not no it's it is a food so I've never had one anyway so you're born in
27:13
uh you're born in Savannah tell me about this Gypsy thing like what are you talking about your folks like d blame my
27:20
father he was a he worked for a international Engineering Corporation
27:25
okay so he got jerked around a lot from Savannah we went to Reno and
27:32
uh wow before I graduated high school I had lived in Reno on and off three
27:38
different times okay so it at least made sense to you into my third into end of
27:43
my 30s I told people I was from Nevada because it's when people still to this
27:49
day they say well where are you from like you just did I don't really have an answer yeah how much how much time do
27:56
you have we can stretch it into two episodes if we need to we'll do what we got to do no
28:02
we don't want to do that yeah oh one will be agonizing enough everybody that I've talked to and told that I was going
28:09
to interview you has either been jealous or or or given me a ah I love that guy I
28:14
mean you're a beloved member of this community it's been a long time coming you've said no to me in the past as far
28:20
as coming on the show I have I have in Bonnie harston says it best she says
28:26
it's impossible for you to have done all the things you say you've done that's what I'm that's why I you're sitting
28:32
here you know that's why that's why I've got you on the show and I've never written it down yeah so uh Nevada but we
28:41
left kept leaving so Nevada you know no love for Nevada that's not oh yeah a lot
28:47
oh do you good it's it's in my heart oh way on and off probably 13 years there
28:55
but my dad's job I mean we would move somewhere and he would be on a big job
29:01
like he mostly built power plants dams big industrial so he would move
29:08
there and he was he was the lead accountant and he was told this job will
29:13
last four years we never lived anywhere for four years he always got pulled off the job because he's in demand that's he
29:21
was in demand I guess to put out fires somewhere else so the second time we
29:27
were living in Reno I was in seventh
29:33
grade and it looked like I was going to be there at least through ninth grade
29:39
okay literally overnight the next thing we knew we were in Boston which is where his corporate headquarters were yeah so
29:46
we lived in a hotel in Boston for the middle part of seventh grade these are
29:51
not easy times I mean this is like Prime make friend and settle in time for for
29:56
7th through ninth graders that's when kids are beating you up cuz you're kid
30:01
back in the good old days bulling that never happened I was pretty good at backing away yeah but then we moved
30:08
again in seventh grade so I was in three seventh grades that was the worst so we
30:14
moved from Boston to Cape Cod and I spent all of 8ighth grade on Cape Cod in
30:20
a k through 12 school which was probably one of the favorite places I ever lived
30:26
so you you able you able to to kind of put ties down for a few years there or no no year and a half not even a year
30:33
and a half and then my dad moved to Peru so did you go with in
30:41
1967 I did for the summer and he lived in a very remote part of the country
30:47
there was nothing closely close to school for me to get to yeah so I came
30:53
back to the States and well her ma and P together at that point or they still
30:59
yeah yeah they were yeah yeah my mom was there but very hard on them no idea of
31:07
what the culture was going to be like my mother had a really hard time with the poverty well me too you know here I I'm
31:15
this 12-year-old cheeseburger milkshake kid and all of a sudden I'm living on canned
31:22
milk and corn flakes and weird food but uh being and rice so she had a hard time
31:29
with the poverty that was there or with your own she had a hard time with the poverty and never tried to educ educate
31:35
herself uh like the money was a huge struggle we'd go to the market and she would just hand somebody a fist full of
31:43
money and say take what it is but it was definitely an experience for
31:49
me um I had I basically lived in the Maes quarters of this house we had and I
31:55
had the an AM r radio and I got this Chicago radio station I mean it was
32:01
during this it was 67 it was during the summer of Love yeah but I was I was
32:07
13 and uh but at night pulled in his Chicago radio station wow which was
32:14
amazing and that's the soundtrack for Summer Love is that is that is that what you're listening to it is yeah yeah I
32:22
mean I knew just as much about contemporary music as anybody in the states cuz that's all I had was my radio
32:29
it's your Lifeline it was but but also oh what I'm missing but at least I had
32:36
it I didn't I did I didn't come I didn't come back to the States and say oh my
32:41
God because I mean things happened really quickly back then musically right
32:47
that's what you're talking about well musically politically you know Vietnam was raging and so uh so then I went I
32:55
lived in college Station Texas for ninth grade wow again because of your dad he's
33:01
he's taking you to College Station no my sister lived there my dad stayed in Peru
33:06
so my sister I have a much older sister and her husband was going to school
33:11
there getting a masters so I lived with them and that was the worst place I ever
33:17
lived really how come red neckie yeah I was already turning into a hippie my
33:23
hair was like beetles haircut yeah kind of those redneck Texas boys didn't like
33:29
it my best friend had moved there the same week as me and he was from Chicago
33:34
okay and we're pretty much we were inseparable and we were The Outsiders but nobody bothered us it was all right
33:41
and then I went back to Peru and I stayed there for eight months eight months okay yeah and this is kind of
33:48
yeah just just to put a timeline on that you're you're headed back to Peru around what is this like 10th 11th grade yeah
33:55
after I got out of nth grade was there for eight months and then back to Reno
34:03
okay so my dad's job was rapping down and he knew he was going to go to Reno back to Reno for the third time after
34:10
that uh my mom and I went ahead of him by a few months and I had missed four
34:16
months of school yeah already to try and get into 10th grade and we actually
34:23
ended up in the principal's office and he said I'll make you a deal he says I'll give you two weeks to catch up and
34:30
if you can't you have to wait start over and I managed to do it that's incredible
34:37
and he said that to you not just to your mom he said that to me and and my mom yeah that's amazing my there were a
34:43
couple of behind the scenes things happening with me in school where the the principal no one of my teachers said
34:50
something to my mom that she chose not to share with me that was kind of like uh if he doesn't get it together this
34:56
year then you know she was like okay we're not going to put that stress on him I was protected but right yeah so
35:04
we're talking let's see 67 now we're coming along like 699 70 that's where you're back and re I
35:14
have friends I have friends yeah friends from grade school yeah I knew some
35:19
people which was great and I loved it there so I and I actually and back then
35:26
and 15 and a half you could get a permit H so I I had a car you just couldn't
35:32
drive at night but also a little side note about that is there were no speed
35:37
limits in Nevada outside of towns so you could you could be two miles outside AR
35:44
Reno and drive as fast as you want wow so that's how I learned to drive yeah so
35:50
then when I turned 16 no restrictions so I had a car I'm 16 years
35:56
old in San Francisco is 4 hours away yeah it's nothing with the insane music scene
36:04
happening over there right so I'm like Mom Mom we're going camping and you just we're going up to
36:12
Tahoe to go camp for the weekend what would she have said would she she wasn't down with the music or or what you were
36:18
doing what was your mom like I'm not sure about that that's a good question but I never tested that isn't that funny
36:23
some kids are just they share everything and then the other one said like well I'm going assume that you're going to I guess be against this so I guess I'm
36:30
admitting to lying to my mother my parents that's okay ER this is a safe
36:36
place she she knew yeah she knew I told her everything later yeah and most of
36:42
the time it was like your T stereotypical mother's response is like oh I knew honey I knew so what does that
36:49
look like for you you're headed off to San Francisco for the weekend um who are you going to see what are you getting
36:55
into Maybe the first trip out there what's what's the first trip out there look like Filmore West yeah to see
37:01
traffic nice yeah Filmore West see traffic your how do you get tickets how
37:07
do you get your money the first one oh you could just you could buy them at the door or you could buy them at the store
37:13
in Reno I always had a job I mean that's how I bought my car at 15 and a half I
37:19
had I had a job yeah so my first my first car was a 56 Chevy
37:27
and I paid $80 for it oh my God it ran okay and it was only six years old yeah
37:35
you know not even it's five years old it I don't remember exactly it probably had
37:41
like 8,000 miles on it awesome so I know wish they still had it so you're headed
37:47
into San Francisco it's it's you know leftover Summer Love really yeah oh way
37:53
most of those people had moved up to the mountains where I ended up living later in life surrounded by them the ones that
38:01
stayed the biggest deal was lodging but what we did many many times is I don't
38:07
know if you're familiar with San Francisco but Ocean Beach right if you drive all the way through Golden Gate
38:13
Park you get to the ocean and ocean beaches there and there's a massive parking lot and you could just park
38:20
there overnight sleep in your car and that's what we always did so that's awesome and nobody'd hassle you no not
38:26
at all yeah uhuh describe that scene what's going on at at the time like what's what's happening there and like
38:33
just give in the city yeah we were we were Cowboy kids from the desert you
38:39
know we weren't sophisticated City Ice we were still buge eyed yeah and bewildered by
38:47
it all and the Filmore I mean that part of San Francisco has always been pretty
38:54
seedy I think my most vivid memory is I had I was with two Pals and we got
39:00
separated in the venue and I'm sitting on the floor between bands and I don't remember
39:08
the first the opening band but it was somebody pretty big and I've tried to go online and find out who it was yeah
39:16
doesn't show up but sitting there and my hair wasn't long it's like yours
39:21
probably now or mine now and every all the guys long hair weing all these cute
39:27
hippie chicks and offering me a joint and I was like
39:34
no not yet not yet not yet so but that
39:41
changed really quickly sure I don't know who was after that there was this band called om a m okay and they used to come
39:48
to Reno a lot and another play with another band called the loading zone mhm
39:56
and obscure Little Bay Area bands and we just love them my two buddies and I had
40:02
the same musical taste and one one time we went down they were playing together and we said oh we have to go to this and
40:09
that time we took our friend's car and we went down and saw the show and turned around and came back home same night
40:16
basic we kind of snuck out yeah yeah showing back up in the morning yeah the
40:22
music scene in Reno was awesome was it really you know is San Francisco was
40:28
pretty close yeah a lot of bands saw a lot of bands I saw Jerry Jeff probably
40:33
before you were born so but but he he would play there a lot in 1976 I saw
40:41
Willie 15 times wow because there was a big Casino there called Harris which is
40:47
now all over the place but it was a mom and pop it was owned by Bill Hara and it had a big showroom and there was a
40:53
Harris at Tahoe and Willie would play three or four times a year for a week at
41:01
each Place wow so it was really easy to go see them I ran with them a couple
41:07
times there's this place in Reno called Virginia Lake that I used to run around I was a runner and uh somebody that I
41:17
ran sorry youor I thought you were yeah yeah I got you I got you yeah and
41:22
somebody told me hey when Will's in town he runs around Virginia Lake early in the morning all the time so I went down
41:28
there one time and no Willie no Willie oh my God it's Willie so I just pulled
41:35
up next to him and we did like three laps it's great that's incredible you get to talk to him at all how old so
41:42
that was yeah we we talk talk the whole time talk he super sweet guy so this is
41:48
around 76 he's 90 now so now I'm jumping yeah that was 76 so I I left Areno moved
41:56
in New York for my senior year so I went from Marino to Long Island wow an hour
42:02
from New York yeah and that's because of your dad again was he back at that point exactly oh yeah he was back he came back
42:09
to Reno and then left Reno and and my parents were both from Long Island and they said oh we can send you home so he
42:17
jumped on that one had a big job there but so yeah I used to go into the New York into catch the New York scene
42:25
you'll love you love this so I went to Filmore east four times okay and I we
42:31
would take the train into the City and that would go to Grand Central Station
42:37
and then you'd have to get on the subway and take it down to the village where Phil morce was and then you got off the
42:45
subway and you had to walk like four or five blocks through the village which was super super dark yeah that's really
42:54
nasty at the time right yeah and you know I'm like 16 17 by then I'm almost
43:00
an adult and and you're pretty too right you're just so oh my God and it's
43:07
nighttime you know and the streets are dark and they're not lit so there was this one street where we had to walk
43:15
down the street and there was a club on the street and we were just we were
43:21
hippie kids and that scene at that club was so weird we always made sure to walk
43:28
across the street from that club and you'll fall out of your chair when I'll
43:34
tell you what the club was yeah lay it on me it was it was CBGB I was gonna ask
43:40
I bet so you got did you guys ever go in there my whole my whole life I'm like oh
43:46
my God I was going to the wrong place right so I could have gone in there and
43:51
seen Lou Reed and Velvet Underground yeah Patty Smith that's what was going right Ron some Talking Heads too at that
43:58
era right it was can you imagine can unfortunately two out of the
44:05
four times I went to the film mores was to see the alond brothers wow with
44:10
Dwayne yeah so I wouldn't give that away or anything no but I mean also that's
44:15
your scene too you probably didn't you know you didn't get into maybe that stuff until later on who knows much
44:22
later yeah yeah so that was pretty yeah Debbie Harry you just walked yeah
44:29
get out of my way I'm going to see the excuse Excuse Me Miss but Patty Smith but you got to be
44:37
there for that that particular year you were there for just a year in in Manhattan no I stayed for quite a while
44:43
six six years oh wow okay yeah so this is post uh when I I so I graduated from
44:50
high school in New York yeah um worked all summer didn't like the east Coast I was
44:56
a West Coast guy you know and
45:02
moved when I was 17 I moved back to California and I ran out of money really
45:08
quickly and because I was 17 nobody would hire me yeah so I ended up going back to New York that I was only gone
45:14
for maybe four months and went back to New York with my tail between my legs and stayed for almost four years that's
45:22
I didn't go to college I got a job in construction making a bunch of money I
45:28
was in a union and I was on a concrete crew yeah that's a is that how you you
45:34
first got into concrete no actually when I was a senior in high school I worked
45:40
at a little joint about two blocks from my house that made yard ornaments out of
45:47
concrete concrete so yeah concrete yeah the owner was this amazing man he was
45:53
almost blind and he was such such an artisan and my best friend and I w't there and
45:59
it was just him and the two of us and we were just mesmerized by things he could
46:04
make that's awesome being almost blind he had literal coke bottle glasses yeah so probably because that stuff is is
46:12
maybe more tactile than than other artwork yeah could be yeah who knows sure but he was he was great he was
46:19
definitely a mentor but having nothing to do with where I am with concrete today Nei one of those jobs I don't
46:25
think so other than maybe you know get having an affinity for it learning how to control it yeah and getting your hands
46:32
in it and it still today has a mind of its own as far as control goes but right
46:38
so when I first became aware of you kind of your your history and your stories and kind of these these Forest Gump
46:46
moments of of being there for uh music and the dead and taping and uh San
46:52
Francisco and all of the different things you've taped when are you in I was it like Baja you were talking
46:58
about them filming out in the desert and Steve McQueen no that was in that was El Paso okay uh the
47:06
summer after I graduated from high school on Long Island my whole family
47:12
moved to El Paso for about five months okay and I didn't want to go I had it
47:18
all set up I was going to move in with my best friend's girlfriend and and wait for my parents
47:25
to come back cuz they knew it was temporary and they would be coming back and I was only 17 and my parents said
47:31
yeah no way you're coming with us you'd already hated Texas at that point I mean
47:37
Texas had been your low Point yeah so from College Station to El Paso yeah
47:43
it's like why not Austin why not please can we just move to Austin do you know
47:49
kinky freedman's [ __ ] from El Paso oh yeah of course yeah so there was I found
47:55
out later and and even when I lived in College Station the 13th floor elevators
48:02
a couple of those guys lived in my neighborhood wow which I found out much
48:08
later you found out that they were in the band or you did you did you have any run-ins with them well I saw the posters
48:15
and I never saw them but I knew they were they were already an entity there
48:20
no band is cooler than the 13th floor elevators no that's so true yeah no God
48:26
you imagine going to see them being on the rail in ninth grade maybe maybe not
48:33
maybe maybe not yeah exactly yeah get down on the floor I'll Eat You Alive I I
48:39
have to say the five months I lived in El Paso were the most motion packed times I ever had so the thing was Steve
48:47
McQueen and no I never sold him pot okay I just you know never let the truth get
48:52
in the way of a good story no I know there was there was a place called The
48:57
Levy and not far from my house and it was just open field and you could ride
49:04
your bike or ride your motorcycle or walk into Mexico across the Rio Grand
49:11
there were no fences there was no border patrol there was nothing yeah but I had a little dirt bike actually it was a
49:19
friends but he kept it at my house so I rote it as I wanted but I was out there
49:24
on my bicycle one time and here comes a motorbike and this guy pulls up next to
49:30
me and he said are we in Mexico and I look at him and of course that was a
49:37
Steve McQueen freak who wasn't you know and uh I was so I was 17 so I told him
49:45
where some great places to ride were and we're chatting and he's and he says well I'm here doing a movie and I said yeah I
49:52
I know and he said well come down to the set and I'll get you on the set and he told me a guy to ask for he was married
50:01
to that amazing European woman and he was so it was the getaway sorry the
50:08
getaway yeah with with Ali mcra Ali mcra and he was obviously cheating on his
50:14
wife with Ali mcra and I had a crush on his wife too and I couldn't stand Ali mcra and nobody liked her except for him
50:23
ex it was really interesting but that was Sam penpa movie yeah and Sam penpa
50:30
was strange dude did you get to meet him no I wouldn't go anywhere near him
50:36
really but they They Carried what's the Egyptian chair he had four Bears he had
50:42
a cherry set on with sticks and four guys would pick them up and move them around the set it was so weird but so
50:50
but I went down there every day and hung out almost every day wow but I had a VW
50:57
bus with New York license plates and I had a
51:03
ponytail and I had been working in a truck stop
51:09
unloading trucks making a lot of money and I would take truck drivers to Warz
51:17
at night to all the hot clubs wow I'm still 17 yeah which it doesn't make any
51:23
difference in Mexico no not a bit but coming across the border you know so I
51:29
knew all these great clubs and there was this one underground in place and that's what it it was called the caves and it
51:36
was this underground bar and it was I think it's still there made to look like
51:41
you're in a big cave stalactites and stac mites wow so I took some people from the film crew there and that became
51:50
the entire film Cruise hangout for the rest of the movie but but uh I didn't
51:56
McQueen would like throw me a nod or a smile and I charg people to take them
52:02
and everybody was everybody was happy I was like a cab right you know I could get like I could get like six people in
52:09
my VW bus I had two bench bench seat you go back and forth or you just do one load per per night and party with them
52:15
uh it it depended sometimes I'd go and stay and I was everybody of course always wanted to buy me drinks yeah and
52:22
I was I don't actually remember drinking I was pretty good about that yeah but
52:28
yeah I'd wait but it was really easy to go back and forth they could get back on their own okay yeah once they're there
52:36
but nobody minded paying me I was probably more expensive than a cab I'm
52:41
sure but so these two guys were hitchhiking and I pull over and they're
52:47
like in downtown El Paso and they said what are the a little bit older than me and they're like what are the odds of a
52:54
long-haired kid in a VW bus picking us up and they were from New York oh my
53:00
gosh and they were musicians and and they were passing through and their van
53:06
broke down and they'd been living in Los cruus right off the road yeah so I ended
53:12
up hauling them around to local gigs and they were called American Rescue and
53:20
both they were they were brothers there was a lead player and the um rhythm
53:25
guitar player and then they had a keyboard and a drummer and a bass player and they were awesome and they had
53:31
played with the Almond Brothers they open for the Almond Brothers in these seedy little shows and I'm like oh dude
53:39
I just saw them you know and I did some little like I knew eventually what cord
53:46
got plugged into what amp and whatnot simple basic stuff and they they opened
53:52
for seals and crofs wow at the University in Los crues and so seals and
53:58
crosss hires me to go on a little mini Southwest tour shut up just a like a
54:05
roadie yeah and Hauling their stuff because they had all their stuff crammed
54:11
in a van with no room and they said you got this big blank van we'll pay you and
54:17
so I went on a little Southwest mini tour Truth or Consequences Albuquerque and Las cruzers
54:24
yeah and and so they and the band were in one van
54:29
and all their equipment was in my van and they were so sweet they were just
54:34
that's amazing nicest nicest guys yeah so I became a legit Ro a legit Ro did
54:42
you use that to Parlay yourself into other I did I bet I did it got me gigs
54:48
so I end up back in Reno and just met some random guy and
54:55
told him that story and he said you know you can sign up there's a list when
55:00
bands come to town and they're looking for worker bees and if you have any cred
55:05
what's so all you can get a job so I worked for Alice Cooper was awesome I
55:13
bet what a gentleman you know peak of his career yeah in the peak of like he
55:18
was biting he was doing the Aussie thing you know crazy he didn't really bite the
55:23
heads off bats but he was pretending sure but he was just the consumate gentleman he was so great and kind and
55:30
sincere backstage that's amazing Starship wow which was crazy was it it's
55:37
when they were yeah it was crazy CU I had a crush on Grace Slick forever I bet
55:43
and there she is and they were all so lit I'm sure they were heavy into junk
55:49
then none of them could talk but they could perform they could perform or maybe some I don't know no it was it was
55:56
like Craig Craig Chito is that what his name was I don't know oh guar player
56:02
right yeah yeah Mr flashy pants that era right that era yeah and did you tour
56:08
with these guys or did you just work like one no just no load in and load out
56:13
stuff but a bunch of people I did a asleep at the wheel nice Ray Benson was
56:19
another I just kept getting hooked up with all these really great people Ray Benson was same thing man God G giant I
56:26
ran into him in Mexico on the elevator I was like he was getting on as I was
56:32
getting off and I I had uh seen him before and I'd met him but no nothing that would stick with with Ray Benson
56:38
you know but he's getting on and I I felt kind of like there's very few s
56:44
foot tall Cowboy guys carrying mandolins that aren't Ray Benson you know so I was
56:51
like he's getting on like long yeah I was like Ray and he's like yeah do I
56:57
know you I was like no I'm sorry to interrupt you I just blown away seeing you here and he's like yeah I'm playing
57:03
here tonight on the beach if you want to come out see yeah yeah yeah so sleep at the wheel
57:11
I mean just incredible uh just Spacey
57:16
Texas Swing uh Bob Wills yeah just swing try and keep up oh my God just try dance
57:23
that fast right yeah they played in Reno they played Reno like a couple times a year awesome so all Casino stuff uh no
57:32
okay no sometimes but no Reno had some great clubs especially like Americana
57:38
stuff yeah Hoy Axton you could go see Hoy accent almost any night of the year
57:44
almost he had a place at Tahoe um but haris getting back to haris
57:50
casino so they had a showroom and that's where Willie and all the big names would play and um then they had a little Club
58:01
so Delbert mclinton oh yeah I'm say I'm saying these because I know there are
58:06
people who like Delbert mclinton would play three four times a year yeah and
58:12
when they would come they they'd stay for a week so you could get off work and
58:18
go see these people every night if you like them a lot but I just ton of people
58:24
there yeah um he's kind of musical family you know like uh Bonnie raid and
58:30
um some of Little Feet too kind of on the peripheral of those guys and Delbert was a big East Coast guy too and he
58:35
would play around DC all the time I think he was headquartered in DC when I was coming up and and um so we you know
58:41
again that would be the type of thing that we could we could go see Delbert he um got busted for it was it was a very
58:48
Blues Brothers kind of situation where the cops were waiting for him to finish and he just kept playing and they he was
58:54
like he knew he was yeah he knew he was in trouble and so we're like man he was just supposed to play for an hour he
58:59
played for two and a half the cops just kind of wait for him like all right wise
59:06
ass didn't you already play this song Right sandy beaches again Jesus yeah
59:13
right I love him I was have yeah definitely well he's still still alive
59:18
but he retired from music last year after didn't want to I guess it was last year a year and a half ago didn't want
59:24
kind of get cranked back up again after Co was just kind of figured that was that was a good time to call it call it
59:30
quits yeah as a lot of people said yeah right yeah a lot of folks a lot of folks
59:36
so um okay where are we here so yeah we're like a tangents all over the place
59:41
good yeah but so I have to tell you one you keep saying all these rock and roll
59:47
stories and I keep thinking I don't real I don't really have any but I my
59:52
favorite yeah of all time time today is the 50th anniversary of which
1:00:00
is I know yeah kind of Bonkers and I didn't realize that till this morning so
1:00:07
living on Long Island working in construction and my best friend was
1:00:12
stage manager at hofra University and he gives me a birthday
1:00:18
present which is an all access pass to see Zappa and the mothers what at
1:00:25
hofra today wow in 1973 that's insane Zappa's first album
1:00:32
came out when I lived in College Station in ninth grade and my buddy The Chicago
1:00:39
Kid bought it the day it came out and I was like I know it's not really for me
1:00:46
but a year later I was just totally in love with the mothers yeah so I was a
1:00:52
huge mother's fan and Zappa fan so hofra I mean it was ways from
1:00:58
Thanksgiving but they did this massive Thanksgiving meal for the band and the whole stage crew and everything and it
1:01:04
was like four or five banquet tables all lined up in a row with candleabras and
1:01:11
Crystal and nice plates and there's probably 25 people at this table wow so
1:01:18
Zappa comes up to me I've got my little bads on Zappa comes up to me and says it's your
1:01:26
birthday and I said uh pretty close and he says sit next to Ruth so Ruth
1:01:34
Underwood you probably don't know but in that era Ruth Underwood was for sure in
1:01:40
the top five women of rock and roll and she was married to Ian Underwood who had
1:01:46
been in the mothers from day one so I'm like
1:01:52
dumbfounded she was just beautiful and gifted and funny and smart so I'm
1:01:58
sitting next to her and about eight people away on the other side of the table is her husband Ian who looked like
1:02:05
a biker that just got out of Leen yeah he's he's a rough looking glaring at me the whole time yeah you know but earlier
1:02:15
I had talked to Jimmy Carl Black and found out we were Neighbors in
1:02:21
El Paso because I Knew by then he lived in said man I lived Ino he like yeah I was
1:02:27
there then you know so we had a little conversation earlier that afternoon yeah
1:02:34
that's incredible we hit it off so Jimmy Carl Black looks over at Ian he's like
1:02:40
you're not worried about that kid are you because he just kept glaring at me you know I so I was I was about to turn
1:02:48
20 wow look out Ian I'm gonna run away with your wife dude you hit it off with
1:02:53
Ruth so that that's my favorite rock and roll story that's that's incredible and
1:03:00
you can find that show that show's really easy to find oh can you really yeah that's what I do love about that
1:03:05
that stuff like you can go back and and check out set lists and um you know and
1:03:11
and figure out oh well this happened I remember this show and then you can go back and people have kept pretty amazing
1:03:17
records of it so you had also been you're in San Francisco at the time you told me this one story about going to
1:03:23
see the first gig of a little rock and roll band coming out of England called Dire Straits oh yeah yeah that's a good
1:03:30
one yeah tell me that story my friend worked in a record store in Marino and
1:03:35
he was on totally on top of music and he said we're going to the city this weekend I got tickets to this band I'm
1:03:42
like never heard of them and I I was busy I didn't really want to go was would have been a hindrance for me to go
1:03:49
and he's like no you really have to come see this band do what do whatever it takes we have to go
1:03:54
so is this little tiny club that sat about 300 people called the old Waldorf
1:04:00
and it was practically in the basement of the Trans America pyramid building which was the skyscraper in San
1:04:07
Francisco at the time um and there was a early show and a late show and if you
1:04:12
had tickets to The Late Show and The Early Show wasn't sold out you could go
1:04:20
in either for the early SE or during the Early Show anyway you mentioned tapers
1:04:26
earlier so yeah I hung out with a group of tapers so it was folding tables the
1:04:34
place was a semicircle and all the tables came off the stage in a Spoke fashion okay and so
1:04:41
it was uncomfortable you sat in uncomfortable folding metal chairs and you had to turn your head to look at the
1:04:47
band right so it's packed and it's bustline there's just this energy in the
1:04:52
air not there music execs there and we're dead center
1:04:59
four seats from the stage and there's like four of us and we have our taping
1:05:05
gear and then there's a sweater in the middle of the table with the microphones
1:05:11
in it hidden in the sweater and then one guy's got this D5 in his
1:05:18
lap and it's like five minutes still showtime and six or seven seats right
1:05:24
across the table from us are empty they're like Prime seats I'm like well
1:05:30
that's going to be weird if they show up in the middle of the show or something so here they come and it was Garcia oh
1:05:38
my God and so Garcia sits like right across from my best buddy what and he's
1:05:44
right there and rock Scully who was the manager of the Greatful Dead at the time
1:05:50
sits right across from me Garcia definitely knew my best friend they're
1:05:56
recognizable from being on the rail at Dead Forever and so the lights go down
1:06:02
and the band comes out and rock Scully leans over into the sweater and he says
1:06:07
start all tapes and so I still have the tape it's
1:06:13
on do you really so yeah sure of course that's incredible so that was that was
1:06:19
pretty fun yeah so you were a taper you were you were part of that whole scene was that I started out I started out as
1:06:26
a taper and I'm like I had like four of my best friends were tapers and it's I
1:06:32
didn't like it because you missed the show oh yeah you're so you're so focused I mean like what you're doing right now
1:06:38
you know you're constantly checking your levels and you're making sure everything's okay and it was just too
1:06:44
distracting you couldn't really go and enjoy the show set you were the you were
1:06:49
the hero no you really couldn't set it up and leave it huh constantly having to
1:06:55
monitor but but I so I was happy to settle for second generation tapes sure
1:07:02
oh my God I have boxes and boxes and boxes man the history of that that that's incredible you ever try to
1:07:08
digitize those or or are they yeah yeah I did i' I've put and all those guys I
1:07:13
still let them do all the crun work yeah yeah come over sometime and I'll let you
1:07:20
go through my CDs all got burned from Master I would love that I need to hear that dire straight show you flip yeah I
1:07:28
bet I'll I'll find it I'll get it to yeah I would love that I would love that so huge huge knofler guy yeah yeah I've
1:07:36
got a ton wow H so another great story of that realm is not very long ago like
1:07:45
10 12 years ago one of the out of my Loop tapers I see him at a show and he
1:07:53
comes up up to me and he says hey don't you like Buddy Miller and I said yeah I
1:07:58
love love Buddy Miller love him incredible he says do you know he was
1:08:04
taper at Filmore East and I'm like shut up what what no that's just what I said
1:08:10
shut up and he says no he snuck a real oh I should this maybe shouldn't be on
1:08:16
air that's okay so so I know he says yeah his he had a good buddy who ran the
1:08:22
soundboard at Filmore and Buddy would bring a real to he lived across the river in New Jersey and would bring a
1:08:29
real to real into the Filmore almost every night and because he never had to
1:08:35
pay for a ticket and he plugged into the board so he has basically a
1:08:42
full epic catalog of anybody that played at Phil morce least for a c period and
1:08:49
I'm like get out so yeah and for folks that don't know Buddy Buddy Miller and
1:08:55
his wife Julie Miller played in Spy boy Emmy Lou Harris's um kind of my favorite era of Emmy L band definitely so and
1:09:05
then have some incredible albums uh kind of in the same family they have a radio
1:09:10
Buddy Miller has a radio show with Jim Lauderdale another musician kind of
1:09:16
borderline family with the Grateful Dead as well even though he's a country guy more of them but uh Robert Hunter has a
1:09:23
record of of of Robert Hunter songs and anyway just if you want to nerd out on some music that that Rob and I are
1:09:30
getting down into well when people when I talk to people and they they're not
1:09:35
Emy L fans or they have no idea of who Buddy Miller is I say well he was in
1:09:41
Robert plants band for a long time yeah yeah just little little old guy like oh
1:09:47
really right so Leslie and I go see Emy L when we're living in California
1:09:54
about 10 years ago after I heard that story so we go see Emy at this Outdoor
1:10:00
Theater in Reno a little quiet small venue and Buddy opens for her and then
1:10:08
he played with her so afterwards he's signing CDs so I get in
1:10:15
line and I'm almost the last person in line after this after the gig and he's
1:10:21
sitting there signing CDs and I get up to and I said I already have your CD and
1:10:26
I didn't I didn't bring it with me I said I want to talk to you so backtracking I always sat in the first
1:10:33
or second row of Phil mace W in the balcony yeah because you literally
1:10:38
looked right down on the stage and they were just killer seeds and I don't have
1:10:44
to tell you how I bought my tickets but I went to a department store and I could sort of pick oh wow and out there in the
1:10:50
BBS of Long Island you got tickets before the people that lived in New York did that's aw so I pretty much always
1:10:56
every show I went to I sat in almost the same place and there were four rows between the balcony and the soundboard
1:11:02
and soundboard was upstairs so I look at buddy and I said I probably sat next to you at a few shows
1:11:09
at Filmore East with your real to real and he he just drops everything and he
1:11:17
says oh my God nobody's said anything like that to me in 20 years that's
1:11:23
incredible and I so I said Is it true and he says well I don't know what you hear but probably and I said so you have
1:11:32
all those tapes and he says I can't tell you where they are and I'm like tell me
1:11:38
and he says they're in my mom's garage in New Jersey and I'm like buddy buddy
1:11:46
that you've got a deal with us and he says I know I know said you just got this gold mine so he gets up from his ch
1:11:53
chair and we're standing talking and there's a gate behind them backstage behind the gate and he comes over to me
1:12:01
and he puts his arm around him and he says come on let's talk and Leslie walks up she's been elsewhere with friends so
1:12:08
she walks up and sees that we're about to head backstage and she looks at buddy and she says I have to tell you I only
1:12:15
married him because he turned me on to you oh my God and he says there's a song
1:12:22
there that's lyrical that sounds like a song that's incredible so we hung out
1:12:28
for a while but yeah there again another one of those insanely sweet rock stars
1:12:33
yeah doesn't spoil them all no no it doesn't and it yeah I I find that often
1:12:39
you know more often than not you run into these guys and and um you know they can they might have a little [ __ ] in
1:12:46
them but uh you could you've heard your stories about Steve Earl but I've always ever had incredible reaction with him
1:12:54
hey um I want to get into something else let's talk uh let's talk little art you want to I was I was just going to say I
1:13:00
thought this show was about art hey I have I have a little gripe yeah I listen
1:13:07
to Sarah that's a hard act to follow she was I don't know her of
1:13:14
course I know of her and I love her work and I know she's awesome person but D that was for sure one of my favorite
1:13:21
episodes that was definitely one of my favorite to record too she was super forthcoming and um I feel like Douglas
1:13:27
and I kind of had our stride with her too it was yeah everything kind of worked she was she was incredible I
1:13:33
loved that talk she she's great yeah yeah I could spend the whole half hour
1:13:39
hour talking to just tangents from what she talked about yeah so incredible incredible stories was there anything
1:13:46
that um that jumped out at you that I mean this is the the episode after her so if there's anything you want to talk
1:13:52
about listen I typically do too so well the whole thing with what's happening with shows you know a lot of us are
1:14:00
getting nervous same exact thing happened to me that happened to you my last two shows were in September yeah
1:14:07
and uh I guess I can name names so St Louis yep which was good but but down in
1:14:14
the past couple years and then I did Written House the weekend after and that was my 13th written house and I've
1:14:22
always done really well at house and it was
1:14:27
horrible that's how I ended my year and I'm like o what's what's happening and
1:14:33
I've done that show so many times I have not a following but I have clients that
1:14:39
at least they live right there they can walk to the show the density there is
1:14:44
you know enormous right population density and they always come and say hi
1:14:50
at least you know when they when I see a client walk in I don't expect them to buy anything sure but it's always sweet
1:14:57
when they come and say hi yeah not one not one one what do you think that is I
1:15:02
mean I I I always feel like we're the canary in the coal mine for the economy but oh boy like I always do really well
1:15:08
in Houston it's an incredible market and I went to buy you and it's always like look it's it's a hard show and it it
1:15:14
takes a a bad rap because it's so hard to do but you know the the thing about it is it's always worth it you know it's
1:15:22
like well I'm going to jump through these hoops and I'm going to do this and at least it's going to be worth it and um you this time around it just wasn't
1:15:28
worth it there was just there wasn't anything happening I didn't see any of my old customers I even emailed you know
1:15:34
old clients and nothing back like it was it was just kind of weird things just feel feel a little off yes they do but
1:15:42
that's odd that have people stopped coming to shows but we're sort of in
1:15:48
that higher end Market we are you know yeah and I don't I think for the most
1:15:54
part does it really matter to most of our clients what the economy is doing but I would think not I mean that's why
1:16:01
that's why we work larger right I mean we're aiming towards that that top you know 10% so right yet again I haven't
1:16:10
heard anybody come up with an answer no not that's the first time I've heard that kind of thing about people just not
1:16:16
showing up and not going out anymore but I don't know it it's there's a lot going
1:16:21
on politically that's pretty terrifying and and uh the world no kiding is on fire it's just
1:16:28
um man yeah I don't even I'm not I'm not even gonna go there with you yeah I know
1:16:35
super scary it is super scary so I I we don't have to dwell on this the same
1:16:40
time I kind of want to talk um a little bit your history kind of got us up to about 82 and then and then we kind of stopped
1:16:48
but let's let's talk a little bit about artwork and where you get your inspiration and and how you got started
1:16:55
I don't know that there are any other concrete artists out there on the circuit you jury under mixed media I'm
1:17:01
sure but it's mostly mostly poured concrete correct it is glass so yeah
1:17:09
almost almost all my work 90% of it has glass in it and I used to be a glass
1:17:15
artist so here I'll give you get your opinion on this and it's a rock and roll
1:17:21
thing and it's a rock and roll Persona that maybe got me to where I am today and I I've told this story many times
1:17:29
and some people scoff and other people say yeah you're right so I'm I'm living
1:17:34
in Reno I'm going to school I'm going to college after like a I took five years I
1:17:39
didn't go back to college for five years after I graduated from high school so I'm in Reno and I want to be an
1:17:45
architect and that's what I wanted to do in high school and because I had to move to New York for my senior year that just
1:17:52
got jerk worked out from underneath me and I was discouraged so I'm in Reno and I'm going to school full-time and I'm
1:17:59
working full-time and uh I'm interning for an
1:18:04
architect's office and my brother-in-law who I was
1:18:10
around a lot starts dabbling and stained glass okay I said you have to teach me how to do that and he goes no nobody
1:18:17
taught me you just look over my shoulder so I was a big fan big fan of Frank Lloyd Wright
1:18:23
as well as Tiffany yeah and so I made a little window very Frankl right style
1:18:30
and then I made a larger window in Tiffany's style so I have a really good friend by
1:18:37
the name of Michael Holly who was from Austin and he was a musician okay and he
1:18:43
left Austin and went to LA and ends up living in Mama cass's house wow yeah
1:18:51
yeah up there in the the hill like Laurel Canyon kind yeah yeah in TOA wow
1:18:57
TOA Canyon gotcha so she this is a great this is a great long story I should
1:19:02
write a short story about this tale yeah please but she's she tells them you'll
1:19:08
never make it as a musician she says you're a really sweet he was insanely
1:19:13
handsome she says you're a really sweet good looking guy but you'll never make
1:19:19
it as a musician he just didn't have the chops okay and she says whatat what are we going to do with you and she and she
1:19:27
thinks about it and she says books she says everybody reads books you need to
1:19:33
do something with books and he says well I can't write and she says no you don't need to do that she says go somewhere
1:19:39
and open a bookstore so he moves to Reno and he opens a bookstore because Mama cast because she told him to I I'm
1:19:46
pretty sure everybody knows who she is I don't think she needs an expanation not at all so so yeah she told him to so he
1:19:53
marries this woman named Helen and they have this bookstore across the street from the University of Nevada in Reno
1:20:01
and we get to be good friends he's probably four or five years older than me and we start hanging out and then he
1:20:08
moves his bookstore into a new mall in Reno and he says you're going to make the sign for my new bookstore out of
1:20:14
stained glass I'm like dude you're high one I don't have time I'm doing all these things he said I don't have time
1:20:21
for that and I don't have those skills he says no you're going to do it so I do it two months later I had quit school
1:20:28
and I quit my job because I was so busy with Stained Glass St glass that's incredible I made it I made
1:20:36
it I made it really quick I made his window really quickly the mall wasn't even open yet the window goes up in his
1:20:43
store Front over his front door and in a couple of days I had three more orders
1:20:48
wow for store signs yeah and then one of one of the stores was a bath supply
1:20:54
store and it was her the woman's husband was building he was a contractor and he was
1:21:01
building houses in Reno and he gave me an order for 40
1:21:06
transom Windows no kiding for these houses he was building so I was like
1:21:13
that's insane thank you Z thanks Frank that was an overnight sensation it's
1:21:18
Mama Mama Cass she she she directed the whole thing strings exactly so some people say
1:21:25
that's crazy she had nothing to do with it but I really do think she did she did so I've always that was
1:21:32
1976 I have always I've done a bunch of things since but I have always always no
1:21:37
matter where I lived or what I was doing I had a glass studio in my house somewhere in the garage and more of like
1:21:44
you you've gone from stained glass to more say fused glass and poured glasses no never never hot always cold glass how
1:21:53
interesting so I was I was living in Hawaii and I was doing quite a bit of glass because I was working with a guy
1:22:00
who had a store a stained glass shop and he did a lot of commission work and he would throw me a lot of stuff but I had
1:22:07
a full-time job as well and I was doing that on the side and hanging out with a bunch of artists and all the successful
1:22:15
artists made work for outside everybody that lives in Hawaii nobody ever goes in
1:22:21
their house there's no reason to go on your house it's all outdoor living space dinner not even that it's all Outdoor
1:22:27
Living so I was really envious of all these people making a lot of money with outdoor art and I thought I'll never get
1:22:33
my glass outside so I on vacation I take
1:22:39
six days and I'm in Santa Fe yeah and I see this really crude stepping stone
1:22:46
that's somebody had taken a broken plate and pressed it into wet concrete and
1:22:51
made a horrible looking stepping stone and this light bulb went off over my head and I thought I can do that with
1:22:59
glass so the next thing I know I'm living in Santa Fe that's a long story
1:23:05
how I got there but um focusing on casting glass in concrete and I just
1:23:12
took a year I had a little bit of money and I took a year because it's easier
1:23:17
said than done there's freeze thought things and I wanted I wanted to make out
1:23:23
furniture and uh so I did and I started doing that in s that's where you started
1:23:29
that in Sant so I I lived there for a year I lived outside of town my very
1:23:34
first art show was in a little town in the Sierra called gregal in
1:23:40
1976 when I a lot happening in 76 76 was
1:23:45
yeah it's good as the year or El Paso and that art show is still happening is
1:23:50
it really still there and my brother-in-law had a little kiosk in this town where he sold his art but that
1:23:57
was my last art show until I moved to Santa Fe which would have been 98 okay
1:24:05
and I started doing the tsuki flea market wow which talked to some of the
1:24:12
olders about that oh yeah we were just over in tsuki they've got you know little little people popping up and
1:24:18
around that little cafe yeah it doesn't exist anymore okay cool little but the tsuki flea market was like the Star Wars
1:24:25
bar it was pretty crazy I think it was February to November right on that
1:24:31
Plateau which is probably all houses now right past the opera house yeah or the Opera it is that's out out near Jennifer
1:24:39
cavens actually yeah exactly she looks down on it she does that's a sweet house
1:24:45
that's a that's two very sweet people right there the sweetest right just incredible people just incredible humans
1:24:53
and their and their home as well yeah yeah they are they're exceptional so
1:24:58
sweet I mean just for cowboy boots alone oh there's a whole show right there right yeah that that is kind of hard to
1:25:05
do cowboy boots on a radio so have to do a YouTube do a tour of Jennifer's oh my
1:25:12
gosh so that's it I never looked back yeah that's the start I've been
1:25:17
supporting myself since then yeah yeah that's incredible Rob I appreciate your stories so much I do want to hear one
1:25:23
more though if you know Rob then chances are you've met his lovely wife Leslie
1:25:29
and if it's okay with her I'd love to hear the story uh how you guys met
1:25:34
because I've heard this a couple of times and it's it's just such a special it's a good one I'm living in Santa Fe
1:25:41
start doing some collaborative work with the iron worker in Pittsburgh our
1:25:46
combined work turns out so well that I moved to Pittsburgh to work with this guy well I find out I'm not a big fan of
1:25:55
Pittsburgh yeah it's a tough one and I miss I miss the West so I'm married at the time not to
1:26:02
Leslie and moved to this tiny little community in Northern California outside
1:26:11
of Nevada City yeah and I buy this small house with a shop and there's there's
1:26:16
maybe 30 people live in this little Valley and my ex-wife who had lived in
1:26:23
New Mexico for a very long time missed New Mexico and said let's go back and I
1:26:29
said I can't go back there and I love it I was finally home after this whole
1:26:35
lifetime of running around I knew I was where I wanted to stay so we had a very
1:26:41
amicable breakup I'm there by myself and I was living there for two years nice
1:26:46
nice work on that one that's a tough one to pull up so out in the middle of nowhere and I was really I was busy doing glass so
1:26:55
there's one house next door no other homes around that was for generation and
1:27:02
he dies and the woman didn't want to stay there alone they were
1:27:09
older and she puts it on the market and I had been gone all day the day she put
1:27:15
it on the market and I come home and she comes running across the yard and she says Rob Rob a woman looked at the house
1:27:22
today and for your sake I hope she buys it I'm like what so that woman keeps
1:27:29
coming back to look at the house and I never happened to be around and then finally she buys the house the day she
1:27:36
moves in and there's all this mystery I have I know nothing about her I don't know if she's married or anything and I
1:27:43
look across the yard and there's three guys helping her with the Rena truck and I'm like oh she's pretty cute she's
1:27:51
she's really cute cute so she's literally a Girl Next Door story she was
1:27:56
single I was single and uh she bought the property because it had a huge shop
1:28:01
and she was a Furniture maker oh wow and she moved there from San Francisco and she had just put herself through wood
1:28:08
School the College of the Redwoods which is one of the best wood schools furniture making schools in the country
1:28:15
school and wanted to settle down and make furniture and 6 months later we're
1:28:22
making Furniture together and a couple years after that we got married so that was that was in uh 22 so 21 years ago 20
1:28:31
that's amazing I kind of for some reason I didn't know that you'd been together that long it's that's uh it's incredible
1:28:37
and then somehow you guys ended up in De Moine after being like The California
1:28:42
Kid like that's that's another episode we got we had no intention of moving
1:28:48
here we got tired of the rural yeah I mean we were we were half hour from our little town and it was a big property
1:28:56
and an older property and it was constant maintenance constant driving
1:29:01
all the time and I was there for almost 20 years right she was there 17 18 and
1:29:08
it just got old took forever just to get out of there so we sold the house and
1:29:14
when it's on the market I look at her and I said you know what's going to happen is we're going to be sitting in the Sprinter in front of the house with
1:29:20
a check in our hand and that's exactly what happened with no
1:29:26
driving around the country we had no place to go and we stopped to visit a
1:29:31
host family that we had met years earlier from the de Mo Art Festival and stayed with them and they sort of set us
1:29:39
up and had a realtor come grab us and start showing us real estate and it was February and it was in the 50s yeah no
1:29:47
oh my God in the 50s that's unheard of whoa this isn't bad and the prices alone
1:29:53
were crazy so we said well we'll give it two years and that was almost that was
1:30:00
six and a half years I was G to say six years I remember when you guys moved there and we were all going what the
1:30:05
[ __ ] are they thinking right with with no offense to Stephen King I know but it's but it's right
1:30:12
no economically it's fantastic because I can be almost anywhere and be home in
1:30:18
two days yes as opposed to driving to Written House from Northern California
1:30:24
and spending 10 days behind the wheel yeah so man this has been an amazing talk you're right we really did fill the
1:30:31
show with music I think I think we did which I wasn't expecting but it's good I
1:30:37
hope so I I think it is it's what I care about I know I don't know you know it's what I wanted to hear well I W to I want
1:30:43
to turn it around and interview you Mr East ghost radio personality I can imagine the stories that you have so I'm
1:30:50
going to hook up with and all right coer them into making that happen interview will all the people you've talked to
1:30:58
yeah yeah all right anytime okay uh Rob I I love you buddy uh please give my love to Leslie and tell her I'm thinking
1:31:05
about her I hope she's doing well and I love you too thank you for this honor oh man I've been wanting to have you on
1:31:11
forever thanks for finally saying yes except you'll curse me because it's going to take you three weeks to you'd
1:31:17
be surprised what Douglas can do he's he's a master this all right brother talk to all right all right see you soon
1:31:23
take care bye you know will I found it really interesting in this talk you
1:31:28
spent you know a small portion of the conversation with Rob talking about you know his artistic life but you can I
1:31:36
barely even talked about it I know I barely even asked him anything I feel bad but you but what you can see from
1:31:42
those early days being like this Nomad this Gypsy how that kind of laid the
1:31:47
groundwork for the life he has now don't you think I mean I do yeah it almost
1:31:52
goes without saying right there are very few art show artists I feel like that do
1:31:57
the middle of the country to the east coast art shows that are willing to hop into the truck and the van and and drive
1:32:03
two days before you even get to God the main highway to get to the show you're going to totally um for Anthony Hansen
1:32:10
talking to him about that and and how long he spends on the road but yeah what a what a road warrior totally and then
1:32:17
to just to take four weeks to himself him and his wife self to just hit the road and just go do
1:32:24
it and and see sites and and just live so I really really enjoyed that that was
1:32:30
really cool yeah so you know this show was kind of uh kind of focused on Rob's
1:32:35
travels early days music history things like that that I wanted to nerd out with him but I did want to give a shout out
1:32:42
to his amazing wife Leslie Gan we kind of touched on her and her work but she's
1:32:47
uh just as a as accomplished an artist as as Rob is for sure and and maybe more
1:32:52
so uh we're both lucky to be married to to amazing powerful uh artistic women so
1:32:58
so cheers to you lesli and and I can't wait to see you out there on the road cool that's awesome uh Hey so you
1:33:05
mentioned earlier about you know having to spend two and a half whatever Plus days just to get to your
1:33:11
destination I am actually about to do that very thing heading out your way to to get to Palm Desert yeah how are you
1:33:19
uh what's the route what did you figure out I did so here's the here's the thing two
1:33:25
years ago came back from theint in November and I vowed I'm never
1:33:33
driving through the Eisenhower pass in November again driving into the snow and
1:33:38
the ice going up the mountains right you know just west of Denver just west of Denver right that that takes you down
1:33:44
through uh into Utah is that right yes it was the most it was awful it was
1:33:50
scary nothing showed up on anyway long story short I am I am going to do the smart guy route this time and I'm going
1:33:57
to come through Albuquerque so I'm going to do the sutherly route and pass by Santa Fe and uh head head on over to
1:34:04
lint California Palm Desert you guys give yourselves plenty a time um I I tend to to stretch it pretty pretty
1:34:11
tight it's like well I you know driving two hours on the day of or 6 hours on the day of setup or whatever well if you
1:34:17
have your act together you can hook a a tow rope up with that piece a crab truck you got there and we will tow you all
1:34:25
the way to lint California youd have to put me in the trailer though I don't think you got a third seat just wrap me
1:34:31
in bubble wrap and put me in the back oh you could fly in and style you could I like it I like it yeah be safe
1:34:39
with that trip Douglas it's not I mean the weather can creep up on you even in New Mexico coming through the desert
1:34:46
really quickly and it can get kind of nasty so just uh look ahead and um still wish there was a yeah freaking app like
1:34:53
that combined the weather with the driving there's still not like a perfect app well um there you go get to work on
1:35:00
that one yeah all my free time uh can you make me an app please I'm an idea
1:35:06
man yes we've got that big trip ahead of us and I'm going to try this week to get
1:35:13
my recording with our next guest which is James and Carrie Pierce from Poria Illinois so that I can get that logged
1:35:20
so I could be editing away on my trip so hopefully when we get back we'll be able to go uninterrupted and still have
1:35:26
another episode the following week I'm excited to hear that and another one that I'm jealous I don't get to be a fly
1:35:33
on the wall on on that one uh tell those guys hello I'm a big fan of both of their work uh and just incredible
1:35:39
artists and and people as well so yeah have a good time talking to those guys all right well have a good trip and
1:35:45
we'll see you in California safe travels look forward to seeing you and Renee Take Care by this podcast is brought to
1:35:51
you by by the National Association of Independent Artists the website is NI
1:35:56
artists.org also sponsored by zapplication that's zapplication.org and
1:36:02
while you're at it find us on social media and engage in these conversations be sure to subscribe to this podcast to
1:36:08
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