Pushing Back on the Nonsense/ Sarah Collier

Working Artists! You are not alone! Growing up in Nashville, Sarah Collier https://thecharmschooldropout.com/home.html was schooled in the art of manners and social graces. She was enrolled in charm school and attended Cotillion as a means to learn proper etiquette amongst high society. The experiences from her formative years serve as some of the inspiration for her mixed media work to "push back on the nonsense."  In this conversation, Sarah reveals her personal discoveries from meeting her birth family, which affirmed her strong drive towards being an artist. Tune in to this remarkable story from The Charm School Dropout.                     

Visual artists Douglas Sigwarth https://www.sigwarthglass.com/ and Will Armstrong http://www.willarmstrongart.com/ co-host and discuss topics affecting working artists. Each episode is a deep dive into a conversation with a guest artist who shares their unique experiences as an independent professional artist.

Evan Reinheimer https://www.youtube.com/@EvanReinheimer

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Transcript

0:00
[Music]
0:11
welcome to the independent artist podcast sponsored by the National Association of Independent Artists also
0:18
sponsored by zapplication I'm will Armstrong and I'm a mixed media artist I'm Douglas sigworth glass blower join
0:25
our conversations with professional working artists
0:30
hey everybody welcome back to the podcast the artfare application results for 2024 started rolling in last week oh
0:38
gross I hope you got something to steady those nerves I hate this time of year I always felt like especially that week
0:44
when you have like several of the different shows announcing it once there'll be just like a a giant Ballroom
0:50
you know and it's like this awards banquet and the the winners go up and the losers have the losers Lounge I feel
0:56
like there ought to abely there ought to be something to help us steady those nerves maybe it'll be our episode today
1:02
what do you think yeah maybe I don't know we'll see my nerves are as high as anybody's my
1:08
friend so we'll see how it goes uh the first one of the season is going to be uh back for a lot of folks and looks
1:15
like I'll be seeing you in sunny Florida I'm actually gonna make the Trek for the
1:21
first time in several years great yeah how long has it been for you I have not done Florida shows in four years uh
1:27
since we moved out here to newx Meo it's just been too far but you know I get
1:32
depressed uh being in my studio and not showing my work for a long period of time that and and the rent being due
1:40
it's a long stretch is it it is a long stretch between say even you know
1:46
September which is what a lot of folks do and April which is that big run but
1:51
uh without any shows but then it's not depressing there's a lot of light out here in New Mexico so it's not the
1:57
dreary cold that you get on the East Coast but I'm looking forward to going back to Florida I'm gonna give it
2:03
another go and see how see how it works out for me I mean I I myself it's been a month off the road and I'm already
2:10
itching you know I mean I'm enjoying this time but it's getting a little comfortable you know I'm I was used to
2:16
the PACE being a little more hectic over the summer so you know I kind of am enjoying it but I'm also looking forward
2:22
to getting out in November to another one out in California yeah I'm not really taking my foot off the gas this
2:28
year and going into next typically there's a big break you know I did this show this month I've got one coming in
2:34
November one in December nothing in January and then I'm kicking it up again
2:39
right around that that middle of February right so we'll see we'll see how it goes but I'm not really taking my
2:45
foot off the gas how are things going out there I mean I'm hearing some mixed reviews on all the different fall shows
2:52
all of my fall shows have been down the last show that I just went to wasn't worth going to at all uh I lost the
2:58
money on that that has not happened in a long time for me dang it so that was uh that was worrisome but um yeah I I that
3:05
one sucked so um I don't really want to call them out by name but if you want to string the if you want to string the
3:11
podcasts together and listen to last weeks you'll know exactly where I was Jesus what a stinker but you know
3:20
okay like that show happened on I I am going to talk about it because you look for excuses and you look for reasons but
3:27
I don't know I'm I'm kind of leaning on the excuses for this one there's an eclipse Saturday morning do you really
3:32
want to go to the art show and see the eclipse I don't know maybe maybe not maybe you want to go to your science
3:38
fair or I don't know do whatever the hell you're doing and then you got seems like an odd pairing right an eclipse and
3:44
an art show all at the same time and it was fun you know my wife on the way out the door was was kind enough to hand me
3:50
the glasses she had gone to the um I'm not sure where she got them but uh she handed those to me on the way out the
3:55
door which was awesome and I got to look at it and see without burning my retinas out nice I don't know if you you saw it
4:01
where you were in Wisconsin but the we got a really healthy dose in New Mexico
4:07
and then also down in in Texas but you could see the reflection of the sun and
4:12
the Crescent Moon off of the leaves casting Shadows on the grounds which was really cool like I had no idea it did
4:19
that wow I honestly forgot it was even going on we were probably blown glass and just clueless so yeah well you
4:26
didn't get it you weren't right in the in the strip like it it actually got darker where we were like it got Dusky
4:34
and and so that was pretty neat but I was down the way from a younger artist
4:40
and I had to explain to her what orbit was which didn't make me feel
4:45
awesome orbit like orbit yeah like the explanation of like the sun and planets
4:51
traveling around and she she was kind of looked at me I was like I you think with the planets and then sometimes they're
4:57
in each other's way and then that a shadow and oh right yeah that that
5:03
didn't cuz she was like oh my God it's so cool cuz I showed her with the classes and it's like it the the
5:09
Crescent is on one side and now it's on the other side I'm a little worried about our education system where it's
5:15
going where it's been that's how it works sorry anyway uh that was interesting to
5:21
have at an art show but then the next day it was sports day and a couple of there was a playoff and a there's a
5:27
baseball thing and a football thing happening and too many strikes do you worry about that with the sports day the
5:34
sports thing on uh yes and no sometimes it happens like I mean you you can't deny it if there's a football game and
5:40
you're at Kent home or away doesn't make any difference if there's an afternoon football game you are not going to see
5:46
anyone that is what is up like you're in Alabama they're watching Alabama roll tide like that's sorry bugs sorry Greg
5:54
turko but that's what's up in Kentuck it's like well the football game starts at 1 and at 12 everyone left so yeah I
6:03
mean that's you just have to know your Market plus the hotels at that show if there's an in town home football game
6:08
it's like you stay at a Fairfield in for 500 bucks it's just not yeah well that
6:15
brings me back to when we were doing Plaza There Was You know the big uh the big Chiefs game on Sunday when Taylor
6:22
Swift was in town and I mean everyone was saying the show's going to be a ghost town on Sunday it it wasn't as
6:29
slow as I had predicted but getting back to the hotel that night everyone in their jerseys coming back from the game
6:35
I'm like that really is a thing people travel you know to cities and to see the
6:40
game yes Douglas they do yes they do they do they like people like
6:46
football [ __ ] with you so yeah I did find also there were a lot of sad like on uh game was on Sunday obviously in so
6:53
Saturday night they was just like my hotel was just jammed with Bears fans oh and they were super obnoxious
7:00
and uh it kind of felt a little good Sunday night going into the hotel with all the sad bear fans just
7:06
like oh you're a football game did win so sorry sorry Bears fans that was funny
7:13
I liked that so right well there was your silver lining yeah good good good for the home go for the home team yeah
7:19
go for home teams and underdogs Douglas that's how I roll yeah well Douglas it's really interesting to be here on the podcast today with you I'm really glad
7:25
to see your face here on this Zoom podcast as we're recording and I want I okay okay switch the speed man what is
7:32
going on at the last show and he he is listening to me talk to another artist
7:38
and he interrupts me and he's like are you I'm sorry but you kind of sound like are you will Armstrong from the the
7:44
independent artist podcast I was like yeah yeah I am and you know sometimes people recognize our voices which is fine for sure yeah it's always nice uh
7:51
but he was like yeah you sound like that but you sound a lot slower because I listened to you guys at one and a half
7:58
oh you listen to Douglas at one and a half like that guy talks fast so I
8:03
wanted to no you don't I mean it's funny though because I was thinking about I just wanted to speed up our talk and
8:09
there's no way he can understand us at this point if I'm talking that fast C my son was telling me he does that in
8:15
college when they have to watch you know recorded lectures he's like he he listens to them at one and a half speed
8:20
just so you know can get through a little faster so it's it sounds like us but a little bit higher pitched just a
8:27
little bit right so anyway however however you listen folks thanks for for
8:32
listening and thanks thanks whether it's fast or slow or we'll take whatever
8:38
whatever hey let's uh I have a little bit of sponsor news from niia cool they
8:44
have some new projects they're working on that I wanted to talk about what's the story with this little video that
8:49
that they put out the pr Committee created a promo video to help promote
8:55
the art show circuit to bring to new collector awareness that art shows are
9:00
places where they can they can come and buy handmade work from artists and they're going to start rolling it out on
9:06
YouTube some paid promotions to help shows with their own promotions to just
9:12
spread the word about this industry so it's not to help a specific show necessarily but it's to help art shows
9:18
in general because I saw the video it's a a real short clip kind of thing uh well well produced it's like one of
9:24
those bumper ads you know like if you are if you watch YouTube and they identify through the algorithms your
9:31
interest um then perhaps if you're an art person or whatever it'll be one of those bumper ads before you actually get
9:37
to watch the video that you were you know looking to watch so instead of buying the new Stones record uh
9:42
advertisement which I for some reason always see uh that's what you get okay yeah and then they're gonna they're
9:49
going to be having that on there in front cool that that makes sense because I was wondering what it was it almost seemed like you're you're sitting in
9:55
your seat on a Delta airplane and then the ad comes up before they tell you to put your seat belt on and how to to
10:00
breathe when the thing comes down it's like you already got me but Nia has switched from being a membership
10:07
organization to an advocacy group so really it's to advocate for artists
10:13
advocate for the market for artists to bring awareness to what we all do out there and what we're trying to sell you
10:20
know sell our artwork interesting do they still does niia still control the weather they
10:26
try I just I think that's funny when get people are like people are you I I talked earlier in the show just about
10:32
excuses and reasons and that's one of the excuses people like to use like well the NAIA is in charge I'm like well then
10:39
how come Carol sesy can't get into the show she wants to sometimes or all of us I'm just using her as an example right
10:44
as an example that's some nonsense it it always has been an advocacy group but what the niaa is trying to do more is to
10:51
just establish themselves as that as just a group of that helps uh whether
10:57
it's artists uh or or show directors it's similar kind of which is why they
11:02
sponsor us to what we are doing you know and and giving a voice to the same Level
11:07
Playing Field so that we can kind of understand each other yeah so they're going to start this fall with targeting
11:13
a few of the main major shows and kind of doing some cross promotions so let's
11:19
say there's a major show going on in a particular City just to see kind of learn from it and then once they start
11:26
to develop some some data then they can start rolling it out more next year into
11:32
let's say Florida art fair season or whatever just to help bring people to the art shows and learn about art shows
11:38
very cool all right yeah uh well nice work on that and again like I said nice production values on that I know that
11:44
Evan reinheimer has been making his own videos for his own and just to to get
11:49
the word out about his own work and about like his feelings and insights onto shows which is a great series by
11:56
the way if you want to look that up on YouTube if you're enjoying what we do chances are you'll enjoy what Evan does
12:01
as well that's always a link in our show notes as well we'll make sure that that's there a link to his his page but
12:08
um yeah similar production values which I think he's a he's a pro so really really nice work across the board uh
12:15
that you guys did cool okay so um something I'm working on at home here we've been busy making artwork just
12:21
basically stocking up for the next shows and everything sure but you know as we're getting close to seasonal changes
12:28
and it's going to start getting pretty cold up here in Wisconsin I'm trying to do those last minute kind of like
12:34
preparations for next year like the display uh giving that a good old
12:39
cleanup and I'm going to actually work on outfitting the van this week so that nice when we head out next year you know
12:46
I don't have to pull everything out of the van to pack it and repack it when we're at the show on the street so wish
12:52
me luck on that one that's a you know I I look at different people that have done it and they did a a whole thing at
12:58
St Louis where people were pulling apart their Vans and showing uh emerging artists how to pack them or how they
13:04
pack them you know who does a really who did a really great job if you search back through this is the heckers John
13:11
Hecker outfitted his and did a lot of sound dampening too so that it's not as as noisy so he he insulated that sucker
13:19
and did some sound baffling and then sealed it all in there before he built his stuff so dig back through that and
13:25
and see if you can see some of his videos that's some some good insight there was that something he posted on
13:31
his own social media on his own social media so John and Patricia Hecker tattoo
13:36
dreams there some artists that a lot of you folks know out there they've been doing shows for a long time really good
13:42
people getting ready to move to Santa Fe actually so we're getting ready to see a lot more of those folks so that'll be
13:48
great well there's Greenville and now there's Santa Fe looks like all you guys are moving to Santa Fe I guess I mean
13:53
Santa Fe has always been an artist Mecca right George o'keef wrecked it for everybody I guess
14:00
hey we had a really great talk last week with uh Sarah Collier dude I loved this
14:05
talk yeah me too she was so forthcoming you know she's one of our our besties
14:11
but I rarely think of her as Sarah I always think of her name as Charm School Dropout the name of her business is you
14:17
know her art business I always refer to her as Charm School it's like the it's like faots Amy and Phil it's like if I
14:23
run into them at the bar it's like well I ran into faots and uh even Phil bot
14:28
bot in my head philb an easy one to bleed together fbot that's philb Phil
14:33
bot but uh yeah she's Charm School to me just just cut it short but Charm School up there incredible to hear the
14:40
background story on that totally where do you guys stand I was gonna ask you this and ask her this when we were
14:47
talking but where do you guys stand you guys are sigworth glass I am will Armstrong art but I used to have a
14:54
business name that I hate now like I I find old business cards and and things
15:01
but I I had a business name it was like kind of a sounded a little bit like Charm School Dropout I used to travel
15:06
around with a Airstream trailer and I called they used to call those guys from the 40s the tin can tourist so I call my
15:13
business that I'm the tinan tourist and I hate it now and then at some point it
15:18
just turned and you're like I can't take this anymore right it's just well yeah I hated it and it's just like it's hard
15:25
for me to take myself seriously if I name but withs it really works I don't
15:31
know it sure does yeah and like you said the background story which everybody will get to hear here shortly It just
15:39
fits and it fits kind of her her whole vibe of like you know so much of the way
15:46
we do things in the world is just nonsense you know it's all just these social norms that are [ __ ] and you
15:53
know she's she's somebody who can be just so real when you meet her and she talks about stuff you know she doesn't
15:59
hold back she's an open book as she says so yeah and it's just definitely like I mean it's it's uh you've got the you've
16:07
got dance music at the catian happens to be Motorhead of the Dead kennedies you got Sarah caller this is what you got
16:13
folks this is who she is she's no [ __ ] and I I loved talking to her it was amazing and we're talking now having
16:19
done the the recording of the interview already but you guys are going to get to hear me be like what what what is all
16:26
this stuff you're talking about I I I I wait hold on I don't get school intian
16:31
is a thing folks we had to us Southerners had to educate poor Douglas in the midwesterners out there yeah and
16:38
it was fun to to do a talk with you sir yeah we've done that several times and to do uh kind of just a three-way talk
16:45
was was a lot of fun well here she is Sarah Collier uh Charm School Dropout I hope you enjoy this talk everyone this
16:52
episode of The Independent artist podcast is brought to you by zap the digital application service where
16:58
artists and art festivals connect you know Doug I was sitting down and talking with my wife yesterday she had just come
17:04
in from her studio and she was complaining one of the big shows they decided to do a do-it-yourself reinvent
17:10
the wheel application I hate that hate that so much yeah seriously I mean it's like typically an application that would
17:16
take you 2 minutes on zap all of a sudden it's going to take you an hour and a half to reformat all of your images to their specifications it just
17:24
made me think about how easy applying with zap is you just click a few buttons
17:30
you've got your 1920s already formatted and you are good to go exactly so I
17:35
personally appreciate what zap is doing and thanks for not making us reinvent the wheel every single week like we used
17:40
to have to do I can Sarah this may not be the best idea uh you and I in the same room
17:48
together Douglas is already getting nervous well here's the thing so I brought up to will last week I go will I
17:54
want to talk to Sarah CER and he said no me and I go no me and he goes hub both of us and Sarah's like oh God Will's
18:01
going to get me in trouble my snark will come out I just feel like whenever we
18:07
get together we're always just kind of like hey let's be shitty about something so you know my wife actually had a
18:13
question Douglas from maybe from Sarah and I how have you managed to not get salty like the rest of us have gotten so
18:20
salty like is it I don't think it's cocaine you don't seem like that kind of guy but uh I'm not salty well why do you
18:27
check in with and see how salty I can get on a day-to-day basis all right we
18:33
rarely see it in the streets Doug rarely hey sunshine yeah all right well that's
18:40
good to hear well Sarah welcome to the show thank you so much for sitting down and talking to us glad to love to be
18:46
here love you guys both thank you we love you and how uh how is it that none of us have a show this weekend it seems
18:52
like a huge weekend everybody's on the road I feel like we should do a triple high five on it truthfully seriously
18:58
yeah congratulations on not being in Virginia or Tennessee this weekend yeah well last weekend you were in Tennessee
19:05
weren't you uh Sarah yes I uh I I did tackle last weekend I'm a fan you know
19:12
I've found a little variety of some smaller shows that I feel like are a
19:18
good fit for me Bayou is uh it's tough for me um it tests my boundaries it's
19:26
tough for everyone I think I know and like but people keep doing it and I'm like how how do you not go and burn
19:33
Houston down it happens what's that hey tak's um it's a
19:39
Tennessee and crafts but the fall you have to be from Tennessee in order to do it right no the beauty of the Fall show
19:46
is they open it to everybody okay their spring show is just limited to Tennessee
19:52
and then they do like the surrounding states but the fall show is open to everybody it runs the gamut in terms of
20:00
what's there but it's kind of nice because there's really only maybe 10 to
20:06
20% 2D wall artists and Nashville Nashville got some money oh yeah you
20:12
know I have fond memories that's where I grew up yeah yeah yeah where is it where the show is held is that yes and they've
20:18
done a revamp on Centennial Park there and so they've put down these beautiful
20:24
pavers and pea gravel and so it really is if you're okay with dollying a little
20:31
bit I like it also Secrets out now uh yeah you just ruined it you just from a
20:39
small show to a Big Show and we like wow how come this is so hard to get into now um that's uh welcome to the podcast but
20:47
you said you tried something different this time you said you went off all on your own I did I did so Aaron as a lot
20:54
of people know my husband Aaron he is the backbone of of all the heavy labor
21:00
and things that I don't like to do he builds all of my frames he puts the tent
21:05
up he does the driving I mean he really is like just that guy and he's great
21:10
that's cool but recently I felt like I ought to know how to do this by myself after 12 years just in case God forbid
21:19
and you g a little trial run you know like a here's here it is without you just in case also side note it's
21:26
horrible um he need he needed to know how important he was and how valued he is do not
21:34
recommend yeah but I did Four Bridges by myself and that's a that's a good
21:39
another good one to kind of do by yourself and then I did tack is it just
21:44
because they're easy like they I think so I think those shows uh God especially
21:50
for Bridges there is not an easier show to do um truly did they move the date on
21:55
that didn't it used to be spring yeah those weren't together so I did Four Bridges back in April and then um more
22:02
recently last week in Taka so I've tried two shows by myself I made it through both I did have to FaceTime Aaron five
22:12
times six times how to put up the tent yeah what how is this connector work and
22:19
like yeah it's all colorcoded he's like in a in a Duck Blind somewhere like he's
22:24
like he's in his kayak and he's like what the [ __ ] um but sorry I just F
22:29
bombed it oh yeah wait just wait till Douglas gets going he's the potty mou you
22:35
just I've been known to back Will's mic off when a few of those off bombs fly
22:40
yeah that's he only does that to me when I'm I if said something kind of sexist
22:45
or particularly heinous and you protect man I love you buddy thank you sir just
22:52
don't want you to get cancelled right exactly it could happen any any second
22:57
any he said just saying the word all of a sudden yeah the um I mean it's just not
23:03
easy and and I'm I mean I give credit to all the people out there doing it on
23:10
their own all the time I mean I know now I'm just like yeah let's just try to
23:15
make this happen together and I do feel bad because like the majority of the time once he sets the tent up he's
23:22
basically babysitting our dog and that's not fun not when you could be drum fishing or working or whatever sure is
23:30
it is it the two of you guys like is does he have a a separate day job or does he come and do shows with you on on
23:36
the side um so we've been real fortunate with that so in the beginning I was a
23:42
high school guidance counselor and Aon was a math teacher and we both had maybe
23:48
reached burnout stage with our job my mother had a critical illness that required me to
23:55
re-evaluate and I done some shows in a different capacity and some Gallery
24:02
shows but when it came time to look at things it just became more sensible for
24:09
Aaron to join in we don't live large so coming off of a teacher's salary into
24:16
an artist salary was not a real shocker okay sadly how long had you guys been in
24:22
education before you kind of said this was enough for you I I was in for about
24:28
15 years and Aaron was maybe in for about seven yeah so and I I loved it I
24:36
was a high school guidance counselor so I had a little bit more flexibility and Aaron taught math
24:43
and everyone hates math and let their math teacher know it and so he had a
24:48
little bit more of the to hell with you man yeah he's like the dentist of the
24:54
teaching world you kind of you know you're the I could see going from high school
25:01
guidance into the art show world as being a fairly seamless transition dealing with artists and
25:08
um yeah all right that that that kind of makes sense can we get a little therapy
25:13
from you is that a yeah yeah all right so I've always wondered about guidance
25:18
counseling is that more like career preparation or is it also like you know
25:24
psychology that kind of thing too is or is it a mix it's a mix my my background
25:30
is in so I went to um I went to Fine Art School and at the University of Tennessee did all of that got out of
25:38
college had no idea what I was supposed to do with that with a painting degree
25:44
so I made it for about a year and a half of just waiting tables and doing odd
25:49
jobs and some graphic design stuff and I was like I can't do this and so I
25:55
applied to graduate school and and my dad was a he was a pastoral counselor so
26:01
he did therapy for ministers and I had always kind of been interested in that
26:08
and so I was like yeah you know let me find what my right area in that is and I
26:14
had been I had been a camp director and I had done some other things with young
26:20
folks and I was like maybe this would be a good fit and so it was and the it is a
26:26
mixture of both well it's whatever they tell you to do truthfully because sometimes I was like I'm the assistant
26:32
principal today okay it's a good mixture of doing psychology Crisis Intervention
26:39
a lot of triage and then career planning and and College Planning and I was the
26:46
person that was like to my school's unhappiness sometimes but like not
26:53
everybody needs to go to college I'm I'm a firm believer in that it's great to have extra knowledge but like I don't
27:01
think it's for everybody and we had a wonderful trade school at the high school that I worked at here in North
27:08
Carolina they had a wonderful masonry program and and and Aaron actually ran their carpentry program for a year when
27:16
the guy that had been doing it had to take a year off be memories what part of Carolina are we talking about this is um
27:23
so this is in Wilmington where we are now we had come from from Shelbyville
27:28
Tennessee The Walking Horse capital of the world yeah peny Tiny Town and I had
27:36
always just I lived here for a little bit after college and I always wanted to get back because the ocean's here and
27:42
it's just a lovely place so we ended up back here in and I started Aaron was
27:48
still in college because he's a baby did you did you do a little cradle robbing there work nice I robed the
27:55
cradle and I'm proud of it well if he's doing all the heavy lifting his back a little he can last longer
28:04
yeah this is not a young man's game yeah exactly what was it about
28:10
being a guidance counselor that you said burned you out and and made you want to move on to something else I'm not really
28:16
sure that's exactly where I was I was tired um because I just will work you
28:22
until you fall over but also like I was coaching soccer I was
28:27
uh if you needed a field trip person I I was just into it and I think I just had
28:34
gotten a little bit overworked and I am not about the hustle I'm about the relax
28:41
and so yeah and like I said my mom got sick and I felt a responsibility to her
28:47
and to make sure that she was getting the care that she needed she had a stroke in 2009 and so that sorry it's a
28:55
downer but um anyway life yeah it is real life um and we do a lot of us are
29:01
at the point where parental caretaking has entered the the equation um
29:08
definitely yeah mine was a little earlier than most you get to this certain age with a lot of people and
29:14
it's really just one trip up you know I mean not that a stroke is a trip up it's a huge event but yeah you know it's it's
29:21
one broken knee it's a slip and a fall and all of a sudden okay that can you know 80 that can kill you you know and
29:30
we get we get through that period where you know we raise our kids and then we actually start caring for parents and it
29:36
is that that strin I mean what do they call like the sandwich generation or something where you're taking care of
29:42
both ends of it if you have both going I can't imagine I mean truthfully I think that was one of the things that played
29:49
into our deciding not to have children was just there was already a lot of
29:54
caretaking going on in a high school and a lot of caretaking going on with my
29:59
parents and yeah don't throw a baby on that throw a baby on the fire that's no
30:05
good yeah good for you good for you to know that about yourselves and just choice so you were you still doing the
30:12
your art interest during all this crazy time and eventually it just kind of took over and that became your soul Focus yes
30:20
it carried through I never quit after college I just kept making things and it
30:25
was like and even my the themes of the work that I make have have stayed pretty
30:31
consistent since then I was fortunate to go through a pretty strong program that
30:37
had good teachers and and we had a strong group of people in that program
30:42
that have all gone on and had pretty nice professional careers and art I just
30:48
was I was scared I was like you know in the back of my head my parents had been
30:54
like I don't know if that's a real good career move to get a painting degree but
30:59
they they went with it yeah it's not it's a bad idea it's a really bad idea
31:05
speaking of the the choice not to go to college yeah they were right that's the
31:11
thing though a lot of times art school will bind you up were you um the type of person that that got a lot out of the
31:16
art school or did you feel like it changed you in a way that um that's a good question no that's a that's a great
31:24
question I loved it in terms of of it's its own weird bubble
31:31
of not reality like you have a studio space and you're surrounded by other
31:38
working artists we mixed in with the grad students when we got to a certain
31:43
point so you're really getting to see what everybody was doing and there was
31:48
some good art being made at my school plus you get tons of reactions all the time to your work and to other people's
31:55
work it's it's a really irational kind of period where when you're alone in your own Studio you don't have that to
32:01
push against 100% 100% I I go from the opposite like I went through the
32:08
illustration not this this talk is now about me everyone uh no but I went through the illustration
32:14
new right so I to do this I just got to talk about me oh man uh thank God it's
32:21
it's me time everybody get a cup of coffee no but uh illustration department
32:26
is well I chose because I actually wanted to paint things that look like things as opposed to I don't love uh or
32:34
you know I do love abstract painting but I'm just not good at creating it and so I felt like you know going into going
32:40
into the fine art program and seeing you know people are like well that's too realistic and then you go into the
32:47
illustration program and it's like well that's not realistic enough and I kind of wanted to walk this line there were
32:53
some really talented medical illustrators that were yeah that
32:58
dictated the whole program because they were clearly just head and shoulders above everybody else and and so
33:04
everybody was trying to be like them and I was like I want to paint a lobster sailing a sailboat and you know it just
33:12
was different so I didn't love my experience at school but I felt like that bound me bound me up which is why I
33:18
was kind of asking you yeah your sense is is a similar you know aesthetic it's
33:25
it's in no way the same as mine but at the same time it agreed fits in the same
33:30
dialogue i' guess yeah yeah and I I mean I took a lot of design classes and was
33:36
definitely geared towards that I was working some graphic design jobs in
33:41
school and put things together for people we had an incredible print making department at at my school and it was
33:49
great while I was in it they literally gave us no idea other than just just oh
33:57
well you'll get out and a gallery will pick you up and you'll move to New York and be famous you mean like career advice like how how you can how you can
34:04
sell your work what you can do with it when it's done yeah right yeah just you know yeah was that an did they ever did
34:11
art shows ever come up it sounds like no but if they did did did they look down their nose at it or have you had any
34:19
kind of backlash since you've started this from your um snobby snobby
34:24
peers no I mean um most of my peers either went on to
34:31
professorships or are just really kind of setting a standard in their field a
34:37
guy that I uh that was in my class my group is probably like the most
34:44
well-known letter press artist in the United States right now I mean he worked
34:50
with Jim at Hat show print Kevin Bradley bless him yeah yeah and so and I
35:00
mean you know so we had this group of people that really were able to step out
35:06
and become uh Rob Tarbell was another guy that he was in graduate school when
35:11
I was there but he has gone on and had a pretty nice professional career I don't
35:16
I don't want to be like name dropping all over the place but it was a good group of people this is your opportunity do it I'm just gonna name drop from here
35:23
out for the rest of the hour I met Murray one
35:29
time and then I know this person so I just remember it was the end it was the
35:35
end of school we were out the night maybe of graduation a friend of mine had
35:40
gotten a job at coca colola doing design work for them another friend of mine was
35:46
moving to New York and I remember we were all sitting in this bar back when I drank and everybody was like just oh
35:53
yeah it's going to be great and I was like [ __ ] I think I forgot to get like a job that goes with this after now that
36:01
you're done with school part because I was just happy with with doing that that was good I
36:10
mean you also said you're happy doing um and I feel like maybe we're Kindred Spirits on this but like just the
36:16
remarkably Adept to doing nothing is what I say about myself sometimes I love it man it is literally I see people that
36:23
just are busting ass and I'm like for what yeah I
36:28
mean I love Leisure and when I say Leisure I mean like I like just walking
36:34
around outside I mean it's not like Leisure like let's go to Paris um kind
36:41
of being alone in your thoughts and just having that time for processing
36:46
absolutely and I just again privilege noted but I I really yeah I could be a I
36:55
Am The Lazy Man's gu I'm okay with that it's good well you you mentioned back before you drank we
37:02
we met at a very interesting time we were neighbors and sometimes we have we know we have our first meetings with
37:08
somebody who's a booth neighbor as we're kind of going through some [ __ ] and you kind of were like a good counselor
37:15
psychology friend for me but I show up at at uh Oklahoma City and that was the
37:21
week that I had decided that I wanted to evaluate my relationship with alcohol MH
37:26
and remember feeling a little uncomfortable about it feeling a little bit of Shame feeling like wondering you
37:33
know do do I have an issue with this is it something I should change and I remember bringing it up to you and you
37:38
were like the perfect person to be there you were like you know there is life
37:43
after alcohol you know and we bonded so much over that long week and yeah and I
37:51
decided that at first it was going to be kind of a break and then I realized my life is better without it and I have you
37:58
know so I I I don't know if there was a problem it doesn't matter if there was a problem really what it is is being more
38:04
present there was a problem I'm just kidding D you were
38:09
fine do an intervention on me I'm out but I just I mean there is there's a
38:16
conversation that we haven't had on the podcast is really kind of choosing and working through kind of some of those
38:22
issues and I don't know if if you want to talk about any of that or if you're comfortable with that or I'm an open
38:28
book um yeah I mean you know one of my greatest enves is those that can find
38:35
the balance with it because with anything to be able to go out have a
38:40
couple of beers be with your friends there's such a social component to that whatever have a couple cigarettes not be
38:48
drawn into every single thing that you come across to the point where you're like oh this is ruining some things mhm
38:56
yeah I envy that it had to be all or nothing for me unfortunately I went through the program for a little bit and
39:03
you know that wasn't really my cup of tea I've read all of the AA literature
39:10
and used it what I can take from it and it was just that it was what I had to do
39:17
um and then as I mentioned to you Doug at one point I found out my actual
39:22
family history and I was like oh it really was what I need to do okay are
39:27
you're saying it there was a genetic component to it yeah yeah so not to take
39:33
us on a real sideways turn but so I'm an adopted child and my parents the people
39:40
that raised me my mom and dad I mean they you know they socially drank and we had alcohol in the house and I
39:47
definitely dove in full force when I was a teen and all the way through till I
39:54
was 36 and yeah it was just part of life and
39:59
what you did then I I kind of started to notice it was affecting just my attitude
40:05
and I would have real bad hangovers and be in a bad spot the next day like I'd
40:12
lose days is how I described it to just sadness and a lot of our literally a lot
40:18
of our social interaction with people we were teachers yeah I mean it was like you know go out on the weekends will me
40:26
is a great town for going out and there's a good scene here and I think everybody was a little shocked because
40:33
like Sarah is fun wrong man I I remember going to a show
40:41
um I guess it was Coconut Grove and then it was like there was an extra weekend and then there was another big one it
40:47
was like maybe gas Barilla I think um maybe I've got the the timing wrong but
40:52
it went so there was a filler show and everybody went went down to Key West and
40:59
everybody was partying all these artists and and it was like it was really fun for about 36 hours and then I it starts
41:08
to kind of realize where you're like this is alcohol is a depressant and
41:13
after all of these different days and all of these different artists on this kind of like extended Bender it was just
41:21
ugly everybody was like I was kind of like God this person's not fun anymore they're not fun anymore they're crying
41:28
um it just was a mess and um I mean it does make you realize those little things about just the scene and you know
41:36
teachers and kind of any group I mean artists obviously as well and uh that
41:41
kind of social drinking is so easy to step away from you know your life and go
41:47
away to a city or go away to this place and all of a sudden it's a big party but you won't be young for long yeah well
41:55
for me kind of came into the picture for me was we were you know we we would have
42:01
a glass of wine or two and I I really don't think we had periods where like the next day we would like not feel
42:07
motivated to work or anything but it we just felt like we have these teenagers now we messaging something to them and
42:14
so that was the first kind of piece but then I started to feel more present and
42:20
there was something about that that helped our relationship with the kids that helped the relationship with each other and I found a lot of benefit from
42:28
that 100% it I mean yeah to be
42:33
available clearly to your young people is a gift and I imagine I don't know
42:41
Doug but I imagine there might have been a shift after that in your relationship
42:46
to your children for sure did that feel like that yeah for sure definitely and
42:52
also I am not against I'm not against any anything
42:57
truthfully good because I still drink I'm a
43:03
heroin I love abolutely I'm I'm a recreational heroin User it's
43:11
just yeah you know just when you you know kick back have a few shots no I do not do heroin anyone calm
43:18
down nobody's doing heroin people are writing letters right now they're like right my fight or flight is kicking and
43:25
I'm ready to uh change the subject all right but talk about the about the fact that you know you adopted and you have
43:32
your parents but then you you come to find out this kind of genetic piece from
43:38
reaching out and meeting your biological Roots well I was always a little bit
43:44
worried about like what is my medical history because there are things that you do need to know about that maybe you
43:51
can do is preventative care and and I'm a little hyperfocused on that
43:58
so uh when I was 21 I remember my dad gave me some papers and it was just
44:05
these little bios about these people and I was like um and he was like if you're
44:10
interested in doing anything with this let me know and then I feel like my mom
44:16
burst into tears at that same time I was like let's put that aside so this
44:22
information was about your biological where you came from your was about my my biological family in the 70s during
44:30
closed adoption times I think basically families went through organizations to
44:37
ours was a Child Services Program in Nashville to adopt a child and it was
44:43
very um there's a lot of paperwork and it was a lot of work but that being said
44:48
you didn't get much information on your family of origin and when I say
44:54
literally a sheet it was a sheet of paper and it had about a paragraph about
45:00
my biological mother and a paragraph about my biological father and a little
45:06
bit about each of their extended families like their mother and father and their grandparents and is it like
45:12
personality type stuff is it medical stuff I mean what exactly do they do
45:17
they explain to you they don't get it's not much it's like your biological mother no name or anything was 5 fo one
45:25
and had red hair and she enjoyed track I mean she was 17 so it's like it's not
45:32
like you're going to get like this is how this person ended up but anyway it was just like real generic information
45:41
um and and like you know your biological father is uh was this age and he was
45:49
into photography and so I mean it had some things that I was like H but also
45:55
not much so anyway my mom just didn't I
46:00
could see it was hurting her feelings to imagine my being like well I'm going to go find out who these people are they
46:07
sound better and so I set it aside and when
46:12
she got ill my mother I was like you know what now's the time I'm in my I'm
46:18
approaching my 40s I need to know if there's anything crazy out there and so
46:24
they had unlocked all of the adoption records in Tennessee and I you know I
46:30
just submitted some forms and I remember about three months later I got a letter
46:37
and they were like you may come to the courthouse or I think that's where it was in Nashville and we'll give you your
46:43
file and you can read through it and we'll make copies of it and you can have all of it and I was like whoa uh yeah
46:51
that's crazy so this would have been maybe 2010 so yeah computers were full
46:57
on Google was there so I went down and and Aaron went with me and and I read
47:03
through all of it and I mean there was some crazy stuff in there but to boil it
47:09
all down every single person in my biological family of birth were artists
47:17
and they were all also alcoholics a lot of them wow um and so I was like holy
47:24
cow and it had names and everything but you do have a piece of paper that's like
47:30
please do not just randomly call these people up and be like surprise but did a
47:37
connection ever happen did you ever meet any of them oh yeah yeah um I did go home and Google everybody um and so
47:46
Facebook friended them no no no no I was very I was being a spy um so sadly my
47:54
biological mother had passed um and I would learn after having to get
48:00
like her records that you know she had died of alcoholism as had her sister it
48:06
was a large family of people and my grandmother uh biologically was a pretty
48:13
well-known artist in Oklahoma and so I was like H so I just kind of figured out
48:19
like how am I going to float this out here yeah this was not the way to do it
48:25
and so so there was a memorial page set up for my mother this is so crazy when I
48:31
think about it and I was like I'll just drop my my name on there like people
48:36
left comments about like sorry and whatever and I was like hey I'm so and
48:42
so's daughter and Camille and if anybody ever wants to reach out to me here's my
48:48
email on this weird tribute page and I was like that's out there and done and
48:56
about I don't know three or four years later I get an email from a biological
49:02
aunt that's like we want to talk to you and I was like okay and she did she filled me in on
49:10
everything she kind of acted as the go between for my biological grandmother
49:15
who was maybe getting into her 90s at that point in time and the rest of the
49:21
people everybody still knew everybody they're all in Tulsa for the most part except for this Aunt who is in Canada
49:29
and they just patched it all together for me and put me in touch with my biological father and some uncles I've
49:37
got some brothers and sisters out there that I haven't really fully met we are
49:43
Instagram friends my my biological brother whose name is also Aaron wow and
49:50
also that was my name on my birth certificate which is too weird oh my god
49:56
wow I got some gasps with that because it is crazy you got podcast gasps on
50:03
your birth certificate you were Aaron and then your mother named another child
50:09
that they had Ain no well I yeah right there's a lot to unpack there um but I
50:15
guess when you have a baby that you're giving up for adoption they're just like you have to pick a name because we have
50:22
to put on the birth certificate and I don't think she knew uh maybe perhaps what my sex was even I
50:28
think she had disconnected pretty well at that time she went to the the Florence critton home for Wayward girls
50:35
basically to have uh me and because they were known well in Tulsa and so I find
50:43
out that my name was Erin as well and I'm like did that play
50:48
into my brain like what happened yeah and then she goes on later in life to
50:54
have a child and names him Aaron as well and yeah we've been in touch and he's
51:01
he's kind of fun and he's a big fisherman too it's it's a little bit too close to home with all of it yeah it is
51:08
trippy makes you wonder about the Universe I love finding your roots stories I just I love hearing all that
51:14
stuff and what was it like for you to like meet all of these people that I'm
51:19
sure there's all these similarities and weird moments that are like odd I mean
51:24
yeah it was um it was it was both lovely and kind of crazy most people have a
51:31
frame of reference of oh I look like such such such and such and I just never
51:36
had that and envied that in people like oh to see what my mother look like and
51:42
do I resemble so and so and so it sort of started to put these things into
51:48
boxes and my biological father and his um wife who he's been married to Forever
51:55
they were like we would like to come and meet you at a show oh that's not a good
52:03
idea wow so did they I was like perfect what a perfect place for all of us to
52:08
come together yes it happened at Brookside it ended up being very sweet
52:15
and good but I I was not emotionally prepared for um for how my body was
52:23
going to react without my brain to all of that I was just like after it
52:29
happened I was like that was cooky wasn't it to to be your an art show
52:35
and yeah I mean it's hard enough to get like the the lingerers in your booth to leave anyway much less family members
52:43
that you've never met you've never met before let's start a relationship also uh this person's interested in this
52:48
painting can we talk over here for a second yeah that's it was that exactly
52:55
yeah but I mean he is an artist as well and um yeah and she is his wife is
53:03
lovely she's actually probably the person I have the most contact with and
53:09
it was I could tell it was hard for him too truthfully you know he was being drafted to go to Vietnam and and they
53:16
weren't real in love or anything it was just they were kids and so a decision
53:21
had to be made and I think it had to be made quickly and cuz he was being sent to Germany and then to Vietnam wow and
53:29
our adult brains can process those realities you know of those decisions if we were in that spot or whatever but
53:36
then when you're at a show meeting them for the first time you've got that little kid reaction that is behind the
53:43
veil you know what I mean it's crazy right right I have prided myself on
53:50
being tough as Nails um or trying to at least put that out there yeah it it put
53:56
me in a it didn't put me in a tail spin I just wasn't I was not prepared I don't think you can be prepared for that but
54:04
it was good looking back on it now and we have we have as much of a
54:09
relationship as I think that I need and that they need I wasn't looking for a
54:15
set of parents or anything like that I was looking for some I guess closure in
54:21
in who I am in this world and as I told you Douglas that literally
54:28
was finding out that they were all artists this is pre-meeting them I was
54:33
like oh okay it's okay for me to be an artist and so that was kind of the final
54:40
you know go forth and invest yourself in this have faith that this is your path
54:45
yeah not that you needed permission but you kind of gave yourself permission because of that are your uh your parents
54:52
the the the parents that raised you are they still with us are they they they are both deceased um sadly they ever get
54:59
to know that you had a relationship with your birth parents my mom did and and
55:04
she was cranky pants about it um but that's okay she had every reason to be
55:11
it's it's funny because she was uh she was quite a character herself the the
55:17
whole Charm School Dropout comes from sort of an inside joke between my mother
55:23
and I because she I don't know as parents you just she wanted to give me
55:29
everything she didn't have and sometimes you don't think about well maybe that's
55:35
not what my child wants she was just doing the best she could to to give me
55:40
the life that she wished that she had had and that was a life of fancy times
55:46
and being a debutant so we're talking Charm School Dropout that's what you named your art business is Charm School
55:52
Dropout so were were you actually enrolled in charm school or is it more it really that actually happened yeah I
56:00
went to I went to both charm school and then also to catian that's amazing okay
56:07
I went to catian too I was a a southerner uh Southern born and raised
56:12
and I also went to catian okay this is something you I don't know anything about what is this thing Cilan like
56:19
ladies and gentlemen are schooled in the art of behavior or what is it etiquette yeah there it's to separate things but I
56:25
want to know what Charm School is what does that mean to you and you're you're talking about you're raised in the Deep
56:32
South that's where yes um this part of North Carolina is and it's polite kind of society this is actually in Tennessee
56:39
back back in Nashville even more so oh yeah do you know the um that Jimmy
56:45
Buffett song about the um the Charm School kind of drop out and and uh no
56:50
and I'm surprised that some crazy person hasn't run up to a show and told me that West Nashville Ballroom yeah I'll I'll
56:57
send it to you it's yeah yeah D It's amazing he picks up this hitchhiker and
57:02
she's like she's a former Nashville or Tennessee um debutant oh that was that
57:07
was me that was you except you're not a I think she was a prostitute so
57:13
sorry oh wait that that's me too I'm sorry that's not been in my
57:19
job tell us what what's going on here what's what's the what is Charm School you're in Tennessee so I'm in Tennessee
57:26
I think the first time I did anything that was like remotely about this is there was a a dance program called Fort
57:33
nightly and all the fifth graders or all the fifth graders whose parents were
57:39
into that they still do it but like you were sent to Fort nightly you were
57:45
taught how to use the Right Fork you had a dance at the end of it where your
57:51
dance card if you had any success rate at all would be full it it was all of it
57:57
it was yeah it was wearing dresses can't see the quizzical look on
58:04
Douglas's face he needs more information here so your dance card is something
58:09
that like people go and they fill out an actual dance card that they want to dance with with Sarah so they they fill
58:16
out the thing and you're like a product right yeah yeah you sit there and wait they come and sign your card and then on
58:23
the seventh day I have to go dance with Jay mcnight sorry jay um you know and
58:30
just yeah it was it's cooky when I think about it but it was a thing and will is
58:36
here to back me up on that yeah this is uh so my dad worked at at an all girls
58:42
private school boarding school in Richmond Virginia and so we knew a lot of that stuff and I went to catian and
58:48
clian isn't like uh I think that was about eighth grade and like you go and
58:53
you're in a ballroom and and there's a stage in our in our situation there was a stage and you had this older couple
58:59
that was up there that would teach you how to dance and you would line up on either side of this gigantic ballroom
59:05
and you weren't really sure uh who you were going to match up with and you start to see and you start to get you
59:11
know you you're like your palms start mine personally my Palms start to sweat
59:16
I'm like oh my God I'm gonna have to dance with Tucker Andrews I can't believe it and uh you know and it's just
59:23
it's this thing and then you go and then you learn how to do you know you learn a waltz you
59:29
learn uh God the fun one was the pretzel real useful stuff to me this sounds like
59:35
the 1940s not the 1980s I mean did it feel to you outdated or did it feel like
59:43
I mean absolutely yeah okay that was the thing is that the catian didn't really change it was the the same thing and
59:49
they're probably playing similar music I mean it was probably like um I don't even remember
59:56
like they might have thrown or something like that more Lawrence wel okay yeah yeah it
1:00:05
was it was very much of that so you pushed up against that right and and you said not for me oh my god did I push up
1:00:11
against that yeah was your mom horrified that you weren't going to be this debutant I mean I well no I mean still I
1:00:18
still did that too so she had a good hold on me through I don't know
1:00:25
probably 26 but yeah my junior year in college I had to go back to Nashville
1:00:33
Dawn the white dress and the gloves the hair you had a date that you
1:00:40
took with you but that was not who presented you your father presented you because they're basically releasing you
1:00:47
into the world to be a eligible uh marriage material lady at
1:00:54
that point time and it was a big like Nashville's no it has no shortcoming of
1:01:01
of that culture like the school that I went to was an all girls school our most famous graduate is Ree Witherspoon and
1:01:09
yeah it was that but we were my family was Fringe on that culture we didn't
1:01:15
have we weren't as moneyed as these people were like I said it was very
1:01:21
important to my mother that I have this experience she wished she had I mean I
1:01:26
can remember like going to college and being like um and just you know Cutting Loose
1:01:33
and doing my own thing like occasionally she yeah she'd Wrangle me back in was
1:01:39
Art School kind of um a permissible kind of thing for somebody like you to do as
1:01:45
far as like like growing up like well she can she can pretend to do her sweet little paintings while she's trying to
1:01:51
land herself a husband like was that kind of thing like could see there were so few careers for the generation before
1:01:59
us as far as women went you know it was like oh well I'm gonna my my mom um she
1:02:05
she would she does listen to this have to not be a dick uh so like my mom went
1:02:12
to she met myad blackmail reel by the way will yeah he's got a huge one I to
1:02:18
do whatever he says I mean I imagine you both have some pretty good access to each other in that way anyway you
1:02:23
wereing all the editing it's got the reels of me being complete oh I'm
1:02:29
horrible um anyway but there were so few careers that were like available to
1:02:36
women in the generation and the generation before that ahead of us it was like oh it's nursing and it's this
1:02:42
and it's you know and it's um it's school counselor right school
1:02:49
celor right school counselor or oh well you you can be a painter uh you can be a painter a perfectly painter that's right
1:02:57
and you can do that while you're raising children while they're sleeping your husband the doctor is often right right
1:03:04
and you know you portrait painting and I remember that being thrown out to me all
1:03:09
the time portrait painting I was like have y'all seen my rendering it's
1:03:16
trash I just was like I'm going to be a Portrait Painter I just kind of went along with it until I could maybe figure
1:03:23
it out for my own um well so how did all of this background I mean kind of how you are
1:03:29
from your nurture family from your nature family and does any of that fit
1:03:35
into the work you make oh 100% yeah absolutely you know and as I imagine we
1:03:42
all do I mean I do want my viewer to be the person that puts their meaning onto
1:03:48
it but yeah everything I make is is I feel like stems back to my own personal
1:03:54
experience that's very important to me to not try to take someone else's story
1:04:00
and tell it because I have done that that that was why I eventually kind of
1:04:07
backed away from the pop art because I feel like we're not backed away but it's
1:04:12
not as Pop Arty as pop art can be because I feel like I'm I don't need to
1:04:18
tell the story of that I need to tell my story through this lens and then let
1:04:25
other people find their meaning in it and yeah and so I I don't know if
1:04:32
you'all seen what I've been doing lately but I've been doing a lot of like tattoo ladies yeah and I've seen regression
1:04:38
with your work from more pop art through and I feel like you have to do the one in order to get to the other in order to
1:04:45
tell the stories that you are able to tell now yeah you had to learn almost
1:04:51
the technique so describe you know give us the the zapplication 100w or less uh
1:04:59
description of your work so the folks don't know okay I'm gonna give you my my
1:05:05
zapplication I make mixed media pieces using a variety of techniques
1:05:12
including stereography photography illustration
1:05:18
painting about our culture pop culture
1:05:23
and our position in it hopefully with the spirit of humor and also creating a
1:05:33
desire for the viewer to respond in their own way um I don't know if that
1:05:38
sounded like nonsense it sounded like a robot reading felt like nonsense yeah it
1:05:43
did is it kind of a push back or or a um commentary on how you know images
1:05:50
throughout time influence how we feel about ourselves or
1:05:56
ideed what should right wait no
1:06:01
absolutely and I like making drawings that look
1:06:07
like that they're from another time but also like people like I'm at the beach
1:06:13
running holding my husband's hand and just like
1:06:18
real overthe toop the thing that we're sold as a
1:06:24
Society is you're going to go on vacation and you're going to have this
1:06:29
wonderful life where it's all going to be Sunshine and Lollipops and and and
1:06:34
there there's a Twist to that because we may well and believe that
1:06:40
that's going to happen but a lot of people never have that experience and it's so American and all the for lack of
1:06:50
a better word like [ __ ] about like boots Dr raing and working my way to the
1:06:57
top I don't think any of us of us as our community can say that
1:07:03
we I mean maybe a few people out there but that we got there like on 100%
1:07:09
without any help or assistance or a leg up or um it's hard I mean you don't just
1:07:18
jump into these careers of getting to do what you want to do a lot people never
1:07:24
get that opportunity I think I'm pushing back on that and I call it
1:07:30
nonsense when I talk to people about my artwork is like I like to focus on the
1:07:37
nonsense of what we're fed it kind of makes us all feel like we're not doing it right you know every damn day that's
1:07:44
your poster or your sign behind you you're pointing at but I mean like that ain't but that ain't me you know that's
1:07:52
like well love that with your work you do have that vintage aesthetic you know
1:07:58
and you're talking about charm schools and um and having that and then the fact that I mean Douglas pointed out the fact
1:08:04
that it sounds like something from the 40s well some of your imagery kind of looks like you're leaning on that
1:08:09
imagery that classically looks like now are you creating your own images or do you also do found object imagery as well
1:08:18
I used to do a lot more found object at this point in time it's just easier for me to get to procreate and draw what I
1:08:26
want to draw I mean I wondered about that if it was like a sourced imagery that you build together these are your
1:08:33
drawings in procreate yeah I have in the past especially when I was using like uh photographic images I mean just straight
1:08:41
ripping because I believe in that like I believe and I will I will fall on this
1:08:46
and die with the sword but like the people that are like I came up with this idea all by myself no you didn't right
1:08:55
um there is somebody that has done this before you and that's okay that's that's great what you're doing is taking an
1:09:03
idea that has definitely existed before and making it your own and so I can
1:09:09
remember when I first started doing shows like people were real into like don't take pictures of my work and I
1:09:15
understand that but also like do take in fact go home and you make what I just
1:09:22
made and then I want to see it because you're going to have a whole different spin on it and it's going to be amazing
1:09:29
or terrible so I think that like like people like
1:09:35
Richard Prince that are just straight you know that's that's it to me and a
1:09:41
lot of people and there's I can feel the eyes rolling as I say what do you mean that's it describe that I mean I think
1:09:47
he that's what I think is great okay because that man has basically said
1:09:54
yeah this person took this Photograph and I understand like there's people that feel they get hurt about it because
1:10:01
they didn't get the money from it I I get that but also I think that that is
1:10:08
clever in a way that is the most clever um and there's also a design sense about
1:10:14
it even when you were just taking images um I mean I remember when I first met you you were even taking like movie
1:10:20
Stills and things like that you were saying something else with and and I know that you've probably gotten into it
1:10:26
with other people as far as like well how can you use the big Labowski in this pie about copyright right I mean I've
1:10:34
done pieces in the in like a record store people like do you have to pay uh
1:10:40
a right because you're drawing Bob Dylan into your piece and it's like no absolutely not but it's but what I'm
1:10:48
what I wanted to say about that is that you could always recognize a certain sense of your Design Within those pieces
1:10:54
there was always something clever about the design of those um that was uniquely yourself that was uniquely you which is
1:11:01
why I I responded to it even in the early iterations of your work thanks will I appreciate that it all works it
1:11:09
all works and and the people that believe that they've come up with their their own creation I I mean good for
1:11:15
them too I just I think there's room for all of it and yeah also wanted to and
1:11:24
this is a little bit of a shift but I do want to make sure that this gets into something somehow when I started doing
1:11:31
art shows I just wanted I am going to name drop a couple of people here I I
1:11:36
didn't know how people were doing it and there were several artists that I was sort of enamored with one of them was
1:11:43
mareline so this would have been like Circa 2009 sent her an email I was like
1:11:50
hey you don't know me but I love what you do and I want to do the same thing and just
1:11:56
you know jotted it off and God bless her she wrote me back and was like call me and let's talk and I was like yeah be
1:12:04
kidding me this is amazing because I did I thought I was like she's so cool you're talking about you're talking
1:12:10
about marelin vanderhart from Canada we had her on the first second episode of
1:12:16
the whole run of the podcast if anyone wants to you check in on her conversation but anyway she's amazing
1:12:21
she's always been a huge resource for so many of us mhm absolutely but she
1:12:27
just gave so freely of her time and herself and just you know we talked on
1:12:33
the phone she told me how to go about it and I was like w that's so cool and also
1:12:39
to Tony uh etheron who y'all should have on the podcast oh yeah he is on our wish
1:12:45
list you know I Tony's work and he he can do everything literally he can make
1:12:53
the most realistic pencil drawing you have ever seen in your whole life he can
1:12:58
make abstract artwork he can make pop art he's just a talent and's a force he
1:13:06
is a force and he's you know he's also a six foot2 thae guy who just presence I I
1:13:14
I just I was like man this guy's got it and this was years and years and years ago and I just I had no fear or shame
1:13:22
and maybe I still don't at that time but I just went up to him and I was like I am such a fan of yours and he just kind
1:13:29
of took me under his wing and was like I mean you know you take your advice what
1:13:35
you need of it but like he was like well here's what I do and I just I'm so
1:13:40
thankful to those people and even will this has again been a decade ago but
1:13:46
like I guess this is just a like let's continue to embrace the people that are
1:13:52
starting out doing this cuz like they're so important to make to generate even
1:13:58
what we do but like this is no brags but like I'd gotten into Fort Worth I was
1:14:04
maybe two years in I had no business doing that show but I was lucky and they
1:14:09
liked what I did but I didn't know what to I was like how does this work and what's this thing with setting a tent
1:14:16
under a tent and um I had reached out to another artist
1:14:22
and and were more frustrated with who's this kid that rolled up in
1:14:28
here and just got into Fort Worth on their first I feel like a lot like if
1:14:33
you have a new voice I think your odds of getting into some of these bigger shows are are higher because if you have
1:14:38
a new voice I mean I did the same thing where I was like right out of the out of the gate I got into Fort Worth and I
1:14:44
felt like they were looking for something a little bit different and they hadn't seen you important it's huge
1:14:50
they need to do that they need to do that that you know when I got my weight list letter for Coconut Grove the other
1:14:56
day mad mad mad but then I was like no that's what needs to happen they don't
1:15:02
need me there 12 years in a row they need to see some new stuff and I hope that is what happened the Kim days are
1:15:10
out there killing it because they should they should be seen but anyway the first
1:15:16
artist reached out to was like hard pass be happy you're in good luck I somehow
1:15:23
connected with Will and will too was like give me a phone call let's talk
1:15:28
about it and he did he walked me through I don't well do you even remember this will remember you know I remember being
1:15:34
next to you in Kent and telling you $5,000 like where's pigy you know you
1:15:39
had a bunch of little tiny stuff that's the only that's the only advice I remember giving you but um now we talked
1:15:44
on the phone and you walked me through how that can be a very complicated setup
1:15:50
and windy and I just was so grateful to everybody and want to do the
1:15:58
same I see like new artists out on the street I know they've got emerging artist program and whatnot but just to
1:16:05
not be like that person that's like why are you here and stole my spot and well
1:16:12
we're going to talk about this too on future podcast but that's one of the big questions with emerging artists is how
1:16:18
to catch them before they've already kind of like had the moment
1:16:24
to start shows you know they they get a profile on application they just start doing shows and then they're like oh
1:16:29
wait I don't qualify for merging anymore because I've been doing this for two years so how do you get them right out
1:16:35
of the gate and we need to be as a community open armed and a source for
1:16:41
one for the industry but two for what we've devoted Our Lives to is putting
1:16:48
Beauty and art out into the world we need to Foster that amongst the young that they can and even if they're not
1:16:54
young yeah a lot of times the new artists are not necessarily what you'd say young but they're they are emerging
1:17:01
and they're bringing exactly still a new voice that hasn't been been heard or seen right right for sure no good can
1:17:08
come from discouraging uh new art it's just it's a locked in system if y'all
1:17:16
will indulge me for a second I I mean I do worry about 45 people got a war
1:17:24
those 45 people are coming back that's going to limit the new people it does I
1:17:32
mean it it we're kind of locking ourselves up at the same time that we're you know hopefully trying to bring new
1:17:39
people in it's complic I mean I don't run shows it's complicated um and you
1:17:45
can't have a total uh shakeup because otherwise daddy can't buy uh new shoes
1:17:50
and uh I just refer to myself as Daddy on the podcast that was gross will that
1:17:56
was really gross whatever I'm gonna say it again next week see where it goes
1:18:02
Turn so U Back back to your work your mixed media work and you know working in
1:18:07
procreate and and creating your mixed media pieces can we talk a little bit about using digital technology and that
1:18:16
whole controversy in you know what people think about it you know using that kind
1:18:21
of a format yeah yeah absolutely so I started in mixed media and then quickly
1:18:27
switched to digital media I've always even when I was in school and it wasn't
1:18:32
even a thing yet I can remember talking to people about like digital art and
1:18:39
like how I felt like it was going to be transformative because I was into photography and that was at that point
1:18:45
basically what digital art was was like Photo layering and um doing cing kind of
1:18:53
thing yeah yeah yeah but with the Advent of the tablet and just basically being
1:19:01
able to take an entire studio and put it into a small device and and that you
1:19:08
have access to brushes and different things that make things look just like
1:19:15
if I were to put a painting on the wall and so yeah I'm I'm all in on digital I
1:19:21
know a lot of people get GED out by it because it seems like a cheat and I would say to those people sit down and
1:19:28
try to do it and that will maybe quickly iron out how cheaty it feels because
1:19:34
it's still you're still putting pin to device to make whatever but it also
1:19:42
allows you to like shift and change and I mean I don't know if y'all have seen videos but like I will project images up
1:19:49
onto my pieces I am not above I don't understand when we've got
1:19:55
to make it like as complicated as possible I'm like you mean like rules like what is yeah like let's you know I love I I
1:20:05
mean I think it's a great idea when shows are like 2D or 3D or both I would like to go back to doing digital me like
1:20:12
going into that category but I do feel that like real quickly afterwards it
1:20:18
became this weird ground for like I made a a Xerox copy and and now this makes
1:20:26
this digital artwork and it it doesn't and then you have people like Kate and Jason that are out there literally
1:20:32
killing it digitally right I mean doing y'all just don't understand the amount of hours that Jason they're killing and
1:20:39
they're not breaking any rules they're they're doing exactly and they were cutting edge as far as it's pretty
1:20:45
interesting to see that work grow too and to see where that goes she's talking
1:20:50
about Katie Harold and her husband J out of Nashville who were both digital
1:20:56
artists so interesting interesting stuff just so you have a reference point not to name drop I mean they're worth Nam
1:21:02
dropping because there are people out there uh we split a Airbnb with Jason
1:21:08
it's been a while ago but like I mean he worked the whole time yeah we were in
1:21:13
Utah and Aon and I are just out there having sandwiches and like staring into
1:21:18
space and and Jason saying he's on his device making artwork yes wow I mean just nonstop and then if
1:21:27
you look at not to go on a big Jason Breck I love you man but like yeah I do too I'm I'm I'm happy to talk about the
1:21:34
the work because it is interesting to see like I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you I just got excited but it's just like to see that furthering
1:21:41
the medium as well to to to kind of see where it can kind of go and he's starting to add Gold Leaf to it and
1:21:47
starting to get physical with the work as well so right and that's the thing is
1:21:53
like I mean my artwork is still and I think that I know painters they start
1:21:59
out like say you were doing a a painting like a setup and you wanted to make a
1:22:05
scene what they'll do is they'll take different photographs of like different
1:22:11
things going on and then put it all together on the computer uh I mean this is how they teach painting now and then
1:22:19
what you do is you make a mockup like a a digital lock up of what your painting is going to be and then you work from
1:22:26
that in whatever capacity that is whether it is you know painting from a
1:22:31
picture or gritting it out or projecting it or whatever but like it starts on the
1:22:40
you know the level of putting it together in in the computer oh my
1:22:46
question not being a an artist working 2D like how either one of you work um so
1:22:52
it is a little bit like I feel like a dum dum in in some sense is really the big digital debate is that you're using
1:22:59
technology to layer and create imagery or is it that at when it's over when the
1:23:04
piece is finished that you can press print and reproduce it multiple times is that really where the heart of people's
1:23:11
issue with digital is I don't know what people's problem is with it I'll be
1:23:18
honest with you I think it is I mean I don't need to we talking way talk but I mean I I definitely think that's what it
1:23:25
is I think that's the the big issue is that you know they're the only people that can then slip it into a bag at an
1:23:30
Originals only show and sell 25 to 100 copies so I I do think that that's what
1:23:36
you are running into as far as digital but I don't know that you do that Sarah do you do are you a no I'm I'm a one
1:23:44
offer um and also like at this point in time it'd be real hard for me to I mean
1:23:51
I might try it but like it be hard for me to jury back into digital just because of the wood and the resin and
1:23:58
the paint and the so many different elements that you're that you're using yeah I mean I yeah I should be able to
1:24:07
because I do do a I'd say a third of the
1:24:13
work is is me on the computer digitally making the piece and then a third of the
1:24:20
work is how to make that into the large piece thanks will um to
1:24:28
put on the back wall um and those two things are not the same can I print that
1:24:33
out and just smack it on there and call it a day absolutely but I don't like to
1:24:41
do that that's not really what you're about anymore yeah I mean I did and I I
1:24:46
think it's just as legitimate as what I'm doing now and also like like the
1:24:51
whole reproduction thing I don't know I mean I don't care do reproductions I actually found that it
1:24:58
cut down on people buying original artwork I think we should have all of it
1:25:03
that's what I'm trying to say who cares like you need to bring out some reproduction so that everyone can have a
1:25:11
whack at being able to afford something yeah I think that's okay I don't think that we should have buy and sell and and
1:25:18
Production Studios I'm not really for that well I think it's interesting I think you know there's kind of different
1:25:24
ways people react to the world it's like if I'm not selling it's because of what's happening in this other booth
1:25:30
across from me you know and it sounds to me like you're saying everybody do themselves and you figure it out and you
1:25:36
know what I mean let the chips fall where they may yeah and also let's be friends let's be I mean let's let's lift
1:25:42
I mean I don't want to it's funny coming from me but let's lift each other up and
1:25:50
Pat each other on the back and like I I do think we do a lot of that but also I
1:25:56
do hear a lot of people complaining about and maybe that's just who we are I
1:26:02
like to complain to but but like you know in the end the
1:26:10
more that we talk people up and and know that we're all everyone's doing work
1:26:17
everyone's taking shortcuts where they can not to affect the integrity of it
1:26:23
but like I assume we're all kind of approaching it the same I don't know integrity and all that yeah yeah yeah or
1:26:30
even like if I were to take an image and use it once that's the beauty of of
1:26:37
digital artw work right there like so I've drawn an illustration in procreate
1:26:43
and now I have that forever and I can take that illustration and project it
1:26:48
into this piece into this piece you know is that a reproduction no but it is
1:26:55
using something I've made again and again if I want to um the scale can
1:27:01
change tell that story yeah you can tell the story the scale can change it can be told in a different way yeah all that
1:27:08
progress that narrative too um that's yeah I use the same characters in my
1:27:13
work right other ha this this person over here where it's it it has a narrative thread throughout and you can
1:27:20
say that a developing story that's right you could you can use those words if you
1:27:25
want here let me get my pen again well we kind of have come to a Kumbaya moment
1:27:31
here lifting people up and you know kind of I I don't want to say favorite but uh
1:27:39
man I I really enjoyed this talk thank you will I'm I'm glad I'm glad I got to speak with both of you even though I was
1:27:46
afraid that that will and I might go off on um whatever we made we made you a scared we made did it we did a good job
1:27:54
well here's your opportunity to get all your snark out right now before we uh we stop recording if you want I don't have
1:28:00
any snark I love everybody y'all don't have to love me but I love you hell yeah
1:28:06
hell yeah well tell Aaron uh we said hi and good luck fishing out there I hope he catches a big one today abely oh yeah
1:28:12
he's going out tonight big drum fishing oh nice I hope hope he catches a monster Sarah thanks so much for joining us this
1:28:19
was awesome we really appreciate you y'all are the best thank you you know well my favorite part of
1:28:25
this talk was you know when you guys were talking you really 2D kind of
1:28:31
things you know and it's it's I a little bit felt like I'm trying to follow you guys and I'm trying to keep up because
1:28:37
it's it's a such a different experience than what I focus on in in my work we
1:28:43
have these different experiences and we get to learn from each other and I think it's it's just so cool to hear all the
1:28:48
different ways three-dimensionally two-dimensionally whatever yeah there's a common dialogue that we don't need to
1:28:55
fill in the blanks with when we're talking as far as like 2D but it's it's all part of the same you know part of
1:29:02
the same world but yeah I I hear I hear what you what you mean and I like hearing different artist stories like
1:29:08
when she talks about getting out of college and being like she loved that part of it and then all of a sudden
1:29:15
she's like I guess I forgot the part about where I have to start thinking about making a you know living out of it you know what I mean she just enjoyed
1:29:21
that and hearing all these different paths that artists take it it's really great
1:29:27
just to hear each other's Journeys because it's so different than what a normal person goes through so to speak
1:29:33
quote unquote you know absolutely and I think it's interesting too to hear like
1:29:38
Leisure you know is a huge part of her and that her work has to be something
1:29:44
that can accommodate that I don't think Leisure and correct me if I'm wrong I I don't see Leisure as part of that
1:29:51
worthan Midwest work ethic I see you guys getting I mean you take your leisure you take your time off and you
1:29:57
need to recharge but you guys are seems to me and correct me if I'm wrong are kind of Workaholics so your work lends
1:30:05
itself to that you have things for everyone well I understand what you're saying because we've had to hustle over
1:30:12
the years and there's a lot of components to that I think the nature of being a glass blower makes us hustle
1:30:18
having young kids but it's interesting I it's coming to me multiple points
1:30:24
through the podcast just the last few months here how important it is for us to slow down and it's kind of happening
1:30:31
now we've gotten through that whole surgery thing right we can breathe a little bit it's a good feeling and it's
1:30:38
kind of a good evaluation a re-evaluation of how we've been doing things over the years well that's great
1:30:43
news cuz the uh economy is crashing and you're going to have to go back to waiting tables oh damn
1:30:50
you get to work that's right get to work is right uh I
1:30:55
was listening to RM this morning the world is collapsing around our ears well
1:31:00
how are we going to fix it get into the studio make work that excites us and that's the way through it so get to work
1:31:07
everyone we're sunscreen eat fiber see you next week all right take care this podcast is brought to you by the
1:31:13
National Association of Independent Artists the website is na artists.org
1:31:19
also sponsored by Z application that's zapplication.org and while you're at it
1:31:25
find us on social media and engage in these conversations be sure to subscribe to this podcast to be notified when we
1:31:31
release new episodes oh and if you like the show we'd love it if you would give us your five-star rating and offer up
1:31:37
your most creative review on your podcast streaming service see you next [Music]
1:31:50
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