Fully Awake/ Cindy Olmes

Join co-hosts Douglas Sigwarth https://www.sigwarthglass.com/ and Will Armstrong http://www.willarmstrongart.com/, professional working artists who talk with guests about ART & SELLING.  Today we discuss the results from The NAIA Artist's Survey with the Board Chair, Benjamin Frey https://www.benjaminfrey.com/. Results are posted on NAIA's website http://www.naiaartists.org/

Today's guest is Cindy Olmes, mixed media painter. https://www.olmesgallery.com/ In this episode Cindy shares the decision to walk away from her business to pursue her art career full-time. She reveals her experiences with stepping outside of her comfort zone and her relationship with the meaning behind her artwork.

PLEASE RATE AND REVIEW US.......... and SUBSCRIBE so the algorithms spread us farther!

Douglas and Will are self-funding this podcast. If you like what we do and would like to financially support the podcast to offset its costs you may gift The Independent Artist Podcast using VENMO/ username @independentartistpodcast or through PAYPAL.ME by clicking on this link https://paypal.me/independentartistpod?locale.x=en_US

Email us at independentartistpodcast@gmail.com with conversation topics, your feedback, or sponsorship inquiries.

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/independentartistpodcast
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/independentartistpodcast/
Website https://www.sigwarthglass.com/independentartistpodcast.html
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHxquKvRx9sI_DuXRLy-tyA
Mailing List  http://eepurl.com/hwQn7b

Sponsors
The National Association of Independent Artists (NAIA). http://www.naiaartists.org/membership-account/membership-levels/
ZAPPlication https://www.zapplication.org

Music  "Walking" by Oliver Lear
Business inquiries at theoliverlear@gmail.com
https://soundcloud.com/oliverlear
https://open.spotify.com/artist/5yAPYzkmK4ZmdbWFLUhRNo?si=i6Y8Uc36QZWIDKIQfT3XFg

This Podcast is owned and produced by Douglas Sigwarth and Will Armstrong. The co-hosts are on the Board of Directors of the NAIA and encourage membership to this valuable organization.  The NAIA is a founding sponsor of the podcast and holds no authority over the creation of the content of the episodes.

Transcript

0:02
foreign
0:11
welcome to the independent artist podcast sponsored by the National Association of Independent Artists also
0:18
sponsored by zapplication I'm will Armstrong and I'm a mixed media artist I'm Douglas sigworth glassblower join
0:26
our conversations with professional working artists ladies and gentlemen boys and girls
0:32
Independent Artists everywhere welcome back to season two of the podcast Douglas nice to see you you too season
0:40
two here we are and we're doing this another year another season this is awesome yeah and thanks again to zap for
0:47
honing up for the entire year so we have some stability there so I'm super excited to bring Independent Artists
0:53
voices back to the airwaves we've got lots more stories to tell and a lot of great things lined up this season so
1:00
thanks Zap for being on board with us we appreciate you yeah we've got an interesting show this week we talked
1:06
about having Ben Fry on from the NAIA to talk about that artist survey and he's
1:11
here so will why don't you bring him on the independent artist podcast is proud to welcome our good friend Benjamin fry
1:18
to the show uh Ben welcome thank you for having me guys I'm excited to be uh on this podcast we should intro here that
1:25
uh Ben is the chair of NAIA that we've talked a lot about is that why he's
1:30
wearing during his crown this morning is that why you've got that on it's uh I forgot my tiara for this I'm sorry never
1:38
forget your tiara it's hard I'm traveling I'm between shows here and I just didn't pack it
1:44
well we appreciate you uh doing this on the road it's really good everybody's been asking us when are we gonna talk
1:50
about these survey results we want to know what everybody had to say about it well yeah I there there's some very
1:56
predictable responses and then there's some some kind of outliers that are interesting I guess that's what we're
2:01
gonna get into the meat of at this point uh yeah let's jump right into it um the first thing that I noticed is that we're
2:08
all old it just sums it up like right there I'm
2:14
like oh Christ we are old well yeah let's look at that section of the survey where we talk about the median age of
2:20
exhibitors at these shows sure yeah um so basically about 40 of respondents
2:27
are between 60 and 70 and with a decent contingency of 50 to 60 year olds
2:33
basically a very small number of people under that age interestingly that 15 of
2:39
people are between 70 and 80 e Which is higher than I would have expected for that age group do you think that has to
2:47
do with like the polling and the elections that have happened in the last 10 years where the polling has been
2:52
skewed because people of a certain generation are more prone to fill out surveys or or do you see something else
2:59
I'm not a statistician I don't play one on TV but but uh I do I do know that the
3:05
NAIA has pulled every five or ten years for the last 30 years since we've been in existence and the age has been
3:12
creeping up which to me indicates that the data is not bad uh that we have that
3:17
is if it's constantly creeping upwards it it seems like we're having a pattern
3:22
of people it's not just that recently only old people fill out service it does support my impression at shows I mean
3:28
you walk down the street and we look around and that's who we're seeing exhibiting at the shows is that that age
3:34
group yeah the surveys are one thing but the eyes don't lie I mean we walk around and we see our compatriots there our
3:42
friends on the street and we are an aging group yeah I mean just take a take an example like the 30 to 40 year old so
3:49
like our data says five percent of people are between 30 and 40 exhibiting
3:54
at art festivals well if you look down the street you've got a show of 300 people that means there's 15 people who
4:01
are exhibiting who are 30 to 40 years old I'm not sure that an average show with 300 artists is going to have more
4:07
than that if you know if I walk down the street and I count we brought that up yesterday at the board meeting and that
4:13
is something of concern to the board members and I think it's going to be of concern to the show directors thinking
4:19
about this next 10 years the Aging population that's kind of my big takeaway from the survey but there's a
4:26
lot more information in there and I I'm scratching my head trying to trying to pull it all apart Doug yeah you know Ben
4:32
you had mentioned in the meeting the amount of respondents and about how it
4:37
was a really overwhelming response to the survey so that we can really guarantee that these responses are
4:44
significant um in regards to passing on to the shows and everything we should be pretty close
4:50
to a well-designed survey with statistical significance from what I
4:56
understand plus or minus you know five percent on a survey is pretty
5:01
significant it's what it's what you're going to get on most national surveys I mean as soon as you're sampling up a
5:08
group of people like that you know 10 000 artists who exhibited shows more or
5:13
less frequently than we were well within the range of getting to within a few
5:20
percentage points of of you know the correct number for for the whole population when I look at the response
5:28
you have it kind of broken down by region and and what percent replied and and where artists groups tend to be what
5:36
did you think of that yeah so when you look at that we have really predictable data like 15 of people say they're from
5:43
Florida that's a pretty pretty obvious I mean it's not the highest percentage of
5:48
any state and that's basically what any artist or any show director knows is intuitively correct when you get
5:55
something like 12 say they're in the kind of Southwest West and 30 percent
6:00
say they're in the Upper Midwest and you know 15 say they're in the uh the kind
6:06
of Mid-Atlantic region those numbers are actually tighter because you have groupings that are that are smaller
6:12
statistical groups so our survey says that three percent of respondents are from California so we're like super
6:19
heavy in the Midwest and the kind of General South and then Florida with a
6:25
little bit coming from other places it kind of makes sense because you look at where we live and where we want to work
6:30
it's like I used to say that if you took a 200 mile string and put the pin
6:36
anywhere on the Mississippi that's where artists should live you know and just swing that thing around and then that
6:42
way you can work the show circuit you know or you got this huge chunk of people that just live in say Florida
6:49
um or you know my dumb ass in Santa Fe who has to travel 18 hours
6:55
I'm like it's a nightmare it's a three-day drive to anywhere you want to go it is uh it's it is the land of
7:02
enchantment and this is where I'll stay so I wanted to go into the next section
7:07
of where we talk about some of these changes that have happened the last couple of years and artists kind of give
7:13
the opinion of they love it or they hate it what were some of the reactions that you noticed to these changes well so I I
7:19
don't think we're gonna surprise a lot of artists and we might not surprise many show directors with the data but like for instance we asked do artists
7:27
like additional space between displays and it's like it's an overwhelming you know 85 percent say they like it
7:33
I don't think you all are gonna be surprised by that and I certainly wasn't that's been the overwhelming response
7:40
from like pretty much anybody that's come on the show yeah and I mean honestly I mean Stephen King posted in
7:46
the Forum uh basically asking artists what show directors can do and and like
7:51
just artist after artist constantly said please keep the space between display ways I mean how many times have you
7:57
gotten to a show and you get six inches between you know your tenth and the neighbor's tent and you've got to put
8:02
your stupid tent up in the middle of this and without knocking over their Pottery like I mean even just regardless
8:08
of covid having a little extra space uh is good but I mean another thing virtual
8:14
exhibits you know most artists hate it and everybody knew that that was true the question about that was in regards
8:20
to combining with a live event having a virtual component or in place having a virtual component as opposed to their
8:27
own type of social media or virtual like their own website or whatever this was
8:33
about a show having a virtual event yeah although we asked it in several ways and
8:39
we didn't I mean it wasn't a hammer home uh the point to show directors that please don't do virtual events it was it
8:47
was more that there were a couple of different aspects we wanted to find out like how artists are actually selling
8:52
their work we wanted to find out what artist can consider beneficial and what they like Etc so like when we just at
8:58
flat out asked do you love or hate virtual exhibits three quarters of artists said that they hated virtual
9:04
exhibits and then when you ask do you plan to in the future do more or fewer
9:11
or about the same virtual exhibits just to know that that's a slightly different question and again we got a response
9:19
where like 50 say they're definitely not going to do virtual exhibits in the future and a few say well you know I'll
9:27
do about the same like 30 said uh they would do about the same meaning I guess if a big art show demanded virtual
9:34
participation they would probably still do it that's the trick for me because when I answered that one I was like well
9:40
I can see these shows making us do it so I see about the same do I see it being successful
9:46
I don't know I've only seen one maybe two online shows uh that actually worked
9:54
um and maybe we can look at their models but that's not that's for maybe another another type that's a really that that
10:01
what works for virtual shows is interesting because I personally of all the various attempts at virtual last
10:07
year I had one extremely successful show right but it resembled no other show it
10:13
never I mean even even in normal times it didn't resemble most normal shows but it's a docent bled I don't mind giving
10:19
those guys a shout out it's the Temple Bethel show I know the one you're talking about because exactly I mean
10:26
because it's like every other virtual show yeah huge fundraiser for the temple uh the folks that are supporting it are
10:32
going to support it no matter what it looks like so uh hats off to them for making it work and and to that Community
10:38
for making it work the uh the whole the whole Temple just always shows up for it
10:44
just to kill it another common reaction to people with the virtual events is the
10:49
ones that were most successful were the ones that aren't a sales directly through the virtual event but that it
10:54
directs people to the website so that the artists themselves can use their own e-commerce to sell their work in the way
11:01
that they like to sell it yeah exactly and my point I mean personally I you know I didn't you don't create a survey
11:07
to to get a point across you create a service yeah data um but like in in looking at this data
11:14
what I see is repeatedly the the concept that basically the way artists deal with
11:22
their collector's best is by direct interaction without the intermediary of some other virtual or or kind of even an
11:29
in-person thing the Galleries and dealers when you look at the the data for how many artists get sales through
11:36
other agencies you know galleries dealers Etsy uh virtual art shows virtual co-ops
11:43
Etc all of that kind of stuff is pretty low I mean most artists heavily depend
11:48
on either direct sales through art shows or commissions or their own mailing list and that kind of stuff I mean it's it's
11:54
just much more important to pass through that level of communication from artists
12:00
to collector well I will say when we worked on the survey in NAIA there were
12:05
a lot of questions we asked where you were saying we weren't just trying to get the predictable answers we threw
12:10
those questions out because it's like uh well yeah every artist wants that so we really want to find those questions that
12:17
can be of benefit to have a result to take the temperature yeah we cut out the
12:22
questions who likes sales well and it's interesting because there
12:28
was one of those questions that I that I did want I kind of insisted on on throwing a few questions in about the
12:36
the qualities or obstacles to uh to a successful show I did want to keep in the question about prize money for
12:42
instance for High attendance because it's interesting but you don't actually know like is High attendance positive or
12:49
negative to most artists and there's ways to break this down I would be interested at some point we haven't done
12:54
this yet but to break down based on average sale Point price point how they
13:01
feel that High attendance is for for them as artists you know whether artists
13:07
who have uh you know a lower price point I mean you can almost predict the data but artists who have a lower price point are going to benefit from having a
13:14
higher attendance um but then there's a question of prize money artists consistently have have
13:20
debated whether prizes are good or bad there's a whole Camp of artists who kind of hate prize money because they feel
13:27
like it's unfairly separates some artists out from the show but
13:33
statistically I mean good from the bad news
13:40
Max sorry you know but when you look at the forums online I mean I remember the AFR
13:47
Forum early on there was we were doing these surveys about you know what what makes a good show and and there were
13:53
there's a statistical percentage of people who don't like prizes because they feel it's unfair uh but you know I
14:00
feel like statistically I don't win a prize at every show for sure I'm far
14:06
from that but just knowing that it's there makes me feel better about a show you know it and I think it helps with
14:12
customers perspective of shows and statistically the survey kind of indicates that I mean 90 of artists
14:18
basically like good prize money at a show well one of the uh things I noticed about what artists like and will you're
14:24
in the minority here because you've said many times that you like the kind of show where you kind of set up shop for a
14:30
long time yeah and uh the data shows that artists like these uh ten to five shows they like the the limited amount
14:37
of days they don't want to kind of dig in and be there until 10 o'clock at night you're going to pay the same amount of money whether you have a four
14:43
day show or a two-day show I like making my expenses before I hit the weekend so that's that might just be me but I don't
14:50
think so it's interesting though the data I mean is heavily in favor of two day shows but like 40 of artists like
14:58
three day shows so you're you're not alone I mean they're basically nobody who said they won a four day show isn't
15:04
ideal right but the thing is you cut a day off of Fort Worth and I'm crying like I I don't want you you know I love
15:11
that like setting up and kind of getting into my groove before I hit the uh hit the weekend and it's like and I meet the
15:18
people first too and I kind of shake the rust off and I I don't know I feel like it to me it's it's a couple a day show
15:24
and and uh I don't want them to cut the days but that's um but it's not just like the Temple Bethel virtual is Fort Worth in unusual
15:31
circumstance hmm maybe uh I've been thinking about those four day shows that
15:37
I do and I love I'm I'm thinking about one of a kind and I don't want to cut any of those days because I know they're
15:43
not going to cut any of the price off you know they're gonna they're you know one of a kind still going to charge me
15:48
three thousand dollars for my booth I I'd be like okay I don't want any an extra day to sell okay here's
15:55
three thousand dollars for a two-day show and it's you know they're not cutting anything yeah those could turn
16:00
into a long uh conversation about the different shows that are longer but we'll take the flip of what you're
16:05
saying like Ann Arbor has been four days forever and they just went to three days which has been met with overwhelming
16:11
great response so I mean there are lots of different takes on that out there because it's hotter than the surface of
16:18
the Sun well there you go for sure you know I also think that this get this gets into I mean like if if I I would be
16:25
deeply disappointed if some show that has a successful model takes our survey
16:31
and they're like okay we're going to change everything to fit exactly what the naiah Yeah I mean most most show
16:38
directors hopefully know their know their business but I do think this can guide for instance you got those not the
16:45
not the top 10 shows in the country but you've got the next 150 and somebody's a
16:50
new director and they're like well I don't know should we keep this we've always done it this way but artists are
16:55
complaining hopefully this can provide some guidance hey Pat a lot of the comments that people on the podcast
17:01
lately have been or they're talking about bigger size booths and wanting Corners 10 by 15s 10 by 20s was there
17:08
anything in the survey that gives any data on how as a whole the artists feel
17:13
about the bigger booths yeah so we asked that in a section of like what makes a positive or negative
17:20
factor in applications or in a show and we asked both about Corner boots and double booths basically the the corner
17:28
Booth thing it was like 50 50 between not a factor and I love it the good 50
17:34
nearly 50 said that the option to purchase a corner Booth uh was a
17:40
significant factor or at least that they love it in a show I'm wondering if show directors would be interested in
17:48
reconfiguring the show maybe dropping the total of artists and increasing different configurations of Booth sizes
17:55
just to see if we could have a different looking I think that's interesting but I don't think you're going to get I don't
18:00
know if this was I can't remember if this was a question on the survey nobody really wants to pay for it you know
18:05
upping the cost of uh that I think most shows are not quite as
18:11
um uh creative with their funding as say like a c even King where our booth fees
18:17
are like what did he say eight percent of the total budget yeah I hear what you're saying but that's not what I'm
18:22
describing I'm saying let's say we've got an exhibitor count of 200. what if
18:28
they drop the numbers to 175 have a few more double booths or a few more Corner
18:34
booths that people can buy and then you have the same dollar amount coming in the end on the budget but then
18:41
the artists who want these different kinds of display spaces can pay for them and be willing and want to pay for them
18:47
yeah I I kind of agree with Douglas on that so Armonk just just came through and asked basically
18:53
all the artists or many of the artists what they thought of their new layout and how to make layouts work in the
19:00
future because they were basically reaching this formula of budget plus
19:06
surface area of the show site and they needed to basically find a way to make
19:13
all the artists happy while maximizing the amount of money for the perfectly limited surface area they had and I
19:20
talked to Judy about it on the show site and I said look you know why don't you try basically really giving more corners
19:29
and premiums to the artists who are willing to pay for that extra surface area that way you can get more money per
19:35
artist for the artists who are willing to pay for that exposure because when you think about the mathematics of it if
19:40
you have two separate artists who both we now know all the artists want extra space between their boots if you have
19:46
two separate artists that takes up more space than one artist with a double booth and you can even get basically
19:52
either the same or more money with fewer artists which which means technically among the artists you've got a show that
19:59
has 175 rather than 300 artists or something like that so you've got somewhat less competition for the same
20:07
Market I'm going to be the champion for the people that want a 10 by 10 slotted booth that don't need the corner this to
20:15
me sounds like you're starting to push you know you start to like have all this extra space all of a sudden the people
20:20
that just want a regular Booth they're paying more and they're they they don't want to pay for for more than already
20:26
the booth fees are killing a lot of us and it crams some people out so with the artists that don't have a big profit
20:32
margin that are just squeaking by I'm nervous about those guys it doesn't seem right I really am kind of begging
20:40
shows to keep your budget not so dependent on booth fees well these were all really great points uh Ben can you
20:47
tell us why did we actually do this entire survey what is the whole purpose behind taking the temperature of the
20:53
artists well I mean quite simply the NAIA exists to be a point of
20:59
communication between artists uh as a group and shows and we basically can't
21:05
do that successfully if we don't really know what artists are thinking at any given moment and despite the fact that
21:11
we've done five or ten surveys over the years it's important to know what new issues what artists are feeling about
21:19
their careers about the things shows are doing at a given time in general so it's
21:25
basically to to work uh as advocates for artist friendly policies uh as we
21:31
communicate with shows and we have heard from the show directors that this data does help them that this does help them
21:38
making decisions maybe that they wouldn't have thought of but then also using it adds data for the people who
21:43
are behind the financing and who are you know writing the checks that they see
21:49
what is important to to us too yeah absolutely and as I've talked to show directors over the years with my role at
21:56
the NAIA most show directors say look you know that we have lots of
22:01
stakeholders we have City councils we have the mayor we have advertisers we have Boards of directors many of them
22:07
have no clue what an artist does or thinks and so even as a show director
22:13
who really takes the artist's perspective and needs into consideration they may be up against three or four
22:19
different brick walls when trying to do something that would be good for the artists having something concrete like a
22:26
national Arts organization such as the NAIA with concrete data that is statistically valid that they can then
22:34
take in in you know some form to their board of directors to their advertisers and say look I know you want to put the
22:41
giant prize pinwheel with the bells and whistles next to the artist and stick
22:46
all the porta potties in front of their booths but you can't do this because artists hate it having something like a
22:52
survey that says artists benefit from this policy artist dislike this policy and they state that they will not apply
22:58
to your show if a show director goes to the board and says artists are stating 75 of artists say if we do this they
23:04
will not apply to our show that will that will that's the key right there to know what is the deal breaker we need to
23:10
know what the deal breaker exactly and that gives show directors who are trying to make the best show possible for
23:16
artists some ammunition to bring to the other stakeholders because there's a lot of loud stakeholders in the room and the
23:22
artists no matter how much we talk about things in person at the show to show
23:28
directors and staff we aren't actually a very visible stakeholder when the shows are making
23:33
decisions uh for 48 weeks of the year and that's what I love about the NAIA
23:39
you know the fact that we are a louder voice together and uh I liked the survey and I like putting it together and
23:46
um you know just having our voice heard a little bit more as opposed to us just being a little whiny this is 10 foot by
23:53
10 foot square for a show we're a bigger force and people actually are hopefully going to listen I know there are quite a
23:59
few folks out there that do yeah and we're an entire industry it's not just like you know we're all a bunch of
24:04
individuals we're an industry that makes money for communities and organizations uh just by having bodies show up to come
24:11
see our work and buy our work so it needs to be a symbiotic thing where where the events are successful for
24:17
everybody who's involved in them absolutely so all of this information can be found on the NAIA website if you
24:24
want to break down a lot more of the data points and look into some of the answers everything from price range of
24:30
work to where a lot of the folks live it's an interesting map you can find that information at
24:38
naiaartists.org did I get that right Ben yes you did we also ask you to become a
24:43
member of the NAIA and let your voices be heard uh we are only as loud as our
24:49
numbers so please folks uh continue to contribute to Naya Dan are we still
24:55
doing free membership there yes we are and uh you can find that information on
25:01
the main menu for the NAIA artists website and all of the links can be
25:07
found in the main menu to that website to both the survey and to join and joining is a good way to get your name
25:14
and your email into the database so that whenever there are new advocacies you
25:19
can be known about it but you can also jump in and volunteer make yourself known what you would be interested in
25:25
doing and how you could be a part of the NAIA and volunteer Services if you are
25:31
so inclined thanks Ben for joining us today and thanks for everything that you've done for the NAIA for as long as
25:37
you've been involved you've been very active you've led the ship and we really
25:42
appreciate your leadership we do Ben thank you so much we've been wanting to have you on here for a while and I will
25:48
have you on for an extended time some other time I want to sit down and get inside that head of yours and talk sales
25:53
and take apart some of your history so we'll get you on in another episode but thanks for sitting down with us this
25:59
this morning here hey thanks for having me guys and it's an honor to be on the podcast I'm excited about what you do
26:05
all right thanks man so it was great talk with Ben I appreciate him sitting down and talking
26:10
to us to start the show uh we've got an exciting interview though this week I'm
26:16
excited for you to hear what Cindy has to say with Doug this is like the oprahiest interview we've had yet it's a
26:23
really cool sit down she was really giving of her information sharing all
26:28
the kind of the vulnerabilities involved in you know years of having another
26:34
another business going and then that moment where she decides to make a change so I don't want to give it all
26:39
away but let's uh jump into her story this is Cindy Ohm's mixed media painter from Cincinnati Ohio
26:47
this episode of The Independent artist podcast is brought to you by zap the digital application service where
26:52
artists and art festivals connect great news around here the application signed on for a full year with us as a sponsor
27:00
you know Douglas when we took this podcast on it started out as a replacement for the naia's newsletter
27:06
and quickly morphed into something else it did it turned into a place for us to share our voices as professional working
27:13
artists this project was a pretty small potatoes kind of thing and as it has grown it has grown some serious expenses
27:19
so thank you to zap for helping us take a lot of those on and get these voices heard thanks tap for your support of our
27:26
show and the support to the artist community well Cindy welcome to the independent
27:31
artist podcast thanks for taking some time out of your busy schedule to talk to me today well I guess I could say the
27:39
same to you you're taking your time to educate the audience and I appreciate that oh that's really nice I first
27:47
started seeing your work earlier this year and it seems like we are on the
27:52
exact same schedule uh running on the same circles all summer I think you were
27:58
at La Quinto as well I was yep yeah yeah I've been enamored with your work since
28:06
you first saw it and I'm also impressed with the amount of recognition you've
28:11
been getting for your great work so congratulations thank you it's surprising I guess the first thing I
28:18
want to bring up when talking to you about your work is just that I know that it was not a
28:25
straight line course for you to get to where you are right now on the street
28:30
selling your work that you're actually new to the art fair circuit yeah um really 2018 I was sort of
28:39
dabbling and then 2019 I was booking shows and starting to have good experiences and then covet hit and there
28:47
was just this big pause in the middle of what I was beginning and so excited to
28:54
do and at the time it was it was just so like somebody was holding my breath
29:01
underwater and I needed to breathe and I couldn't get to the surface but really looking back at it now
29:09
not that code was a good thing it was a horrible thing and it's still a horrible thing but I really needed that year to
29:17
bring the body of work to a more realized State and I I really took that
29:24
year I didn't take a day off I was in my studio every single day I was just I was
29:32
in the zone and I was cranking the workout where covet interrupted you was at that upward
29:40
trajectory that enthusiasm that I'm getting ready to go do this the ideas are just flowing
29:47
and for some people who have expressed this covet interruption
29:52
they were kind of at a period of doing this for quite a while following a bit
29:58
of a formula and then when that rug was pulled out from under them the inspiration to keep coming up with new
30:04
ideas or that interaction with the the audience was gone so that stifled them
30:11
but you were on the other side of that you were like up up yep that's true and I talked to
30:17
um a few of my friends exactly what you said that had been in the industry for years and I said oh my gosh you must be
30:25
really cranking out the work and they were like no I'm like playing golf and doing all the things that they can't do
30:32
when they're traveling on the road all the time to shows right finding that other that other side that balance of of
30:39
like well I've kind of been ignoring the personal side of our lives and that's what we kind of got into then where
30:45
we're like well now I have the time to golf or or go for bike rides or go to
30:50
movies and watch the things that really yeah give me inspiration yeah yeah no I mean I was a kid with a new toy and I
30:57
just wanted to play with my new toy every chance I got and at the same time actually in May
31:06
of 2020 we had been working on building a studio for me across the driveway from
31:12
our house so in May of 2020 that studio was done and it was like brand new this
31:20
gorgeous space and so I also didn't want to be anywhere else but in my brand new
31:26
building wow that is just sounds like yeah like your creative place your happy place and
31:33
yeah yeah brand new building brand new body of work just a brand new experience
31:39
so you did you did you did not mind being secluded because you were with your work and with your thoughts and
31:46
with your creativity and it was great it was great I I loved every minute of it I
31:52
had built up a tremendous body of work when the show started this year and yet
31:58
I've continued to work seven days a week I worked every single day and some 10 to
32:04
12 hour days trying to keep up with the demand because people weren't allowed to buy
32:10
art or go to art shows for a year and they had a lot of pent-up spending frustration I think definitely which was
32:17
good good for us artists that was great that is great we hope that continues on I mean you know one of the worries is
32:23
that bubble and yeah what is the future hold nobody knows I mean now we're talking are there going to be more
32:29
shutdowns so yeah no we don't even want to go down that conversation but yeah that people the future is always
32:34
uncertain it's become that you know I I think we all took our freedom for
32:40
granted and we're we're seeing that that's just not a given right
32:45
well tell me about the pre-2018 what kind of led up to this shift
32:53
well um in 90 with a bachelor's of Fine Arts
33:00
okay and I used to say I'm a secretary with an art degree who can't type
33:07
I felt like I was completely unmarketable and I wasn't sure what to do but when I was in school a sort of
33:15
strange thing happened in that there was a building next to the school that was being constructed and in the summer
33:22
before the entire building was finished the property management team had this
33:27
wonderful retail space that they weren't ready to rent out and but they said if you art students want to open up a
33:34
gallery for the summer you know go ahead and do it in this space and I was one of a handful of
33:41
artists that decided that we we wanted to take them up on that offer and it turned out that the gallery existed
33:50
there for about a year and a half through my graduation from art school there were about 20 of us that were
33:56
really committed to this and we wanted it to continue so we started another Gallery up the street around the corner
34:03
in a in a less expensive rental space and we ran that for probably I guess
34:10
close to three years okay and at that point I was like doing
34:16
all their book work and hanging all the shows and typing all I was doing a lot of stuff I was I had just slowly learned
34:24
sort of how to manage a business through this this experience and I thought you
34:30
know why don't I just do this for myself okay so I ended up opening my own
34:38
Gallery in a really kind of a hoe dunk neighborhood and but I knew the the guy
34:46
that had the building and he wanted to bring a little bit of art into the
34:51
neighborhood and some diversity he was the mayor at the time and he just wanted some different kinds of business there
34:58
so I rented this building from him and the funny part is okay I open up a
35:05
visual business an art gallery in a building that didn't have a single window oh okay
35:12
no natural light nothing no no no no no but I mean there's a lot of things like
35:19
that as we progress on we take the next step towards something and then we kind
35:25
of have that learning curve you know so you well yeah this is a great space this is a great opportunity this is where
35:30
I'll do the next thing of my vision and then there were still tweaks within that that needed to be made you know it's
35:36
weird though because I didn't I didn't think it was a great space or a great opportunity it was just that I had an
35:43
art degree and I really wanted to somehow be working in the industry and I
35:49
just didn't know what else to do it was really for a lack of no other choice and
35:57
not being really willing to go out there and find a better choice I just said okay I'll just do this okay and and I
36:06
didn't I offered Custom Framing which I didn't know that much about so I had to
36:12
learn how to do that and I and I ended up moving out of that building and into
36:18
the building next door which did have Windows and I downsized instead of it being a
36:25
gallery where I represented other artists it was really a frame shop but
36:30
it there was a small uh space the front part of the building that also showcased
36:37
my work of which there was not a whole lot because I was mostly framing because
36:43
that was that's just an income that you can count on so it sounds like uh kind
36:49
of slowly but surely the the goal of selling your work as an independent
36:55
professional artist started taking a step away from that and towards a more
37:00
business-minded routine yeah kind of income that would be stable
37:05
yes and yet you know I wasn't frustrated by that really because
37:11
um I really enjoyed the Custom Framing it's also an artistic outlet and and
37:17
creative and you're working with colors and putting things together and I still feel to this day that the frame is it's
37:25
the Finishing Touch of the artwork you know something that should be considered
37:30
so I enjoyed it well there's an aspect of being an artist that is entrepreneurial and a lot of us are
37:38
attracted to this business not just for the creativity aspect and making things but it is being our own bosses making
37:45
our own decisions not answering to anybody else that that is a choice that is attractive to the way of life that we
37:51
want to live I have so much respect for the artists in this industry I mean
37:57
exactly what you said being self-disciplined and self-motivated and self-regulated that was one of my
38:04
biggest struggles when I opened the gallery because I I had always worked
38:09
for someone else in a group setting where everything was laid out for you and
38:15
to work just for yourself and on your own I really struggled the first couple
38:20
years and then I had a friend who sat me down and said I want you simple task every day to write down at the end of
38:28
the day what you did that day and what that related to monetarily what did you
38:36
generate monetarily in that day okay and that really changed my discipline okay
38:43
so it gives you more of a of a razor focus on what is propelling you tangibly
38:50
forward towards the business as opposed to kind of like spinning your wheels well you know you think about if you
38:57
know what your your expenses and your overhead and your rent if you know what all of that is yeah you can break it
39:04
down to what you need to be generating every day to make a living and stay in business I did that for about two or
39:10
three years religiously and then I was kind of done with it I mean I was I knew that when I
39:18
went in in the morning I was going to work all day then it was a skill it was
39:23
a technique that that got you focused on on self-motivation and discipline yeah
39:28
and I think that's what I'm so amazed at artists that do this for a living because every one of us we've had to
39:35
learn that on our own yeah that not through having a boss or or other
39:41
workers but on your own to be self-motivated self-disciplined and on top of that
39:46
you've got to be creative you know it's not all laid out for you you have to reinvent a new wheel every
39:53
day it's it's amazing and and that's nothing compared
39:58
to then you have to schlep this stuff across country you
40:03
know and you have to set up in every kind of weather condition well it's a good point that you make
40:09
that I hadn't considered uh it's making me become self-reflective about that and where do I find the motivation and I
40:16
think for a long time the way I've run my business since we started this almost 30 years
40:23
I think that there was a bit of fear regarding what if I'm not keeping busy
40:31
enough what if I'm not committed to enough things that generate Revenue so I generally would over commit myself
40:38
and then the motivation to work is just
40:43
the pile that's in front of you that has to get accomplished and my my shift and
40:50
my challenge since we've come back from covid since we had that long break is being intentional about well how can
40:58
I come back to this and make a plan and say I don't need to over commit I need to make sure I commit
41:05
to myself enough and then I can shift things a bit so that there's a quality
41:11
of life that isn't such like a you know like we're running a race or on a total
41:16
treadmill or a hamster wheel of people talk about a hamster wheel yeah you know I I think that that's happening to so
41:24
many people they took that year of covid to reassess how they're spending their
41:29
time yeah right so you know after a period of time for
41:35
you being in the frame shop and working your business you came to this realization that you were done with that
41:42
yeah you know what I have to say probably the last two three years I was
41:47
framing I felt the frustration um you know almost like an a little bit
41:53
like I'm an animal in a cage like I'm trapped here um instead of loving to going to work
41:58
every day there had been a shift and yet it just
42:04
seemed like an impossible decision to to close the business I mean it was the
42:12
frame shop was my baby it was the baby that never grew up and was never going
42:19
to stop needing me and at some point I I think I wanted the baby to go away to
42:24
college or something right all right that's a really good point
42:31
right and yet I mean I loved the baby you know yeah yeah I really
42:38
did and I I felt like I would be betraying it to even consider it but then it really
42:46
just sort of reached a point where instead of trying to figure out all the
42:51
reasons why I could or I couldn't or how it would work if I did or if I didn't I
42:58
just decided to make a decision yeah and and that that's so much of what
43:03
I think holds people back is they're trying to figure out all the little minutia of of the decision when they just need
43:11
to make the decision and then things will fall into place when I started Custom Framing I didn't know how to
43:18
custom frame I didn't know how to run a business and what I figured out right away was that I should never look up
43:25
just take the step then you take the next step and you take another step and
43:31
all of a sudden you've walked down the road right well that served as an example to
43:37
you that while I've done it in this aspect so I can apply the same skill walking
43:43
into a new way of selling my work I don't have to know everything about it
43:48
I just need to take the next step and then continue to take the next step and you would have confidence in the fact
43:54
that you'd just figure it out like you figured out the other thing yeah well yeah I wish that I'd had that Clear
44:02
Vision but you know it was really I was walking my dog it was a Tuesday morning
44:08
and and literally I felt I felt myself
44:15
walk out of myself because I was Milling it over in my brain how am I going to do
44:20
this how could I possibly consider doing this and then all of a sudden it was like I saw myself she was walking down
44:27
the road in front of me and she was done she had made a decision and I just
44:33
needed to follow her lead so I came home it was a Tuesday morning and my husband was
44:40
working from home that day and I said do you mind if I close my shop I would just want to be an artist and he said he gave
44:48
the perfect husband answer if it makes you happy yeah that's great that's awesome so I
44:54
did and I say that you know that was a Tuesday morning I saw we sent out
45:02
Lee I no longer frame wow it's I mean it seems abrupt like you say on a Tuesday
45:08
and then on Sunday but you sound like you had two years of really needing to
45:13
come to terms with that before it could settle in and be like I don't have to have reasons X Y and Z I can just make
45:21
the decision and it's okay that I'm done with this now and it's okay that I'm done with this yeah yeah it's like it
45:30
served its purpose and it does not negate its value in your life or its
45:36
emotional connection or like it meant it wasn't what you were supposed to be doing it would just meant
45:42
now it was time to move on to the next thing you know time to make a change and
45:47
I think it's one of the things things that I struggle with you know change uh it
45:53
scares me it upsets me our neighbor moved out recently and I just keep thinking how could he do that how could
45:59
he change his life like that and just leave us
46:04
how dare he how dare he said I wasn't I wasn't ready I needed I
46:12
needed a couple years to think about this exactly it happened too quickly for me well I I
46:20
do think that this Roadshow artist kind of career it can be a place where people
46:28
are okay with being a bit spontaneous you know it's it's not the kind of
46:33
Lifestyle for people who are like they have to plan it and say this is what I'm
46:40
gonna do here and here and here and here we kind of have are more reactionary to what's happening and then we adjust and
46:48
so I would think that setting up your life in a way that is
46:53
kind of planned you could plan about what your business was going to be like there and then to LEAP into the complete
47:00
unknown it had to take some time for it to sink in and adjust for you well even
47:06
now you know I can't tell you how many times when I first started doing art shows
47:11
because I did dabble and before I made the big jump in 2018 I had done outdoor
47:16
art shows I do one here or one there whenever I could fit it into my schedule
47:21
but I remember every time I would do one I would think I am never doing this
47:27
again oh it just seemed so crazy and setting up the boof and you might be in
47:35
the rain and I I would just think I I can't believe people do this driving a
47:41
van across country I just I couldn't I couldn't relate to it and yet every time after the show it ends you it's almost
47:48
like labor then you forget that it hurts yeah oh yeah I think about the um about the
47:56
application Amnesia that happens sometimes when we go to just go through and apply for a show we're like oh wait
48:02
a minute I didn't do so well with that one or this one or whatever but I'm just going through the motions I'm doing my
48:08
applications because that's what you do yeah oh yeah yeah yeah I know what
48:14
you're talking about about that Labor uh you forget about it when my wife was going to labor with the second her eyes
48:19
opened up as wide as they could at my face and she goes I can't believe this is happening to me again
48:26
oh gosh it's so true but you know that's how we survive as a species so that we
48:33
forget yeah there you go also tell me about those first art fairs and then you
48:40
said that the First Reactions were like this isn't for me but then how did you actually decide to make that leap into
48:46
the art fair World well once I gave up the frame shop my thought was and this
48:53
is kind of funny was that this will be easy I'll just
48:59
be an artist and I'll do some a show or two here or
49:04
there and and now I realize I mean I've worked a thousand times harder at this
49:11
than I ever did at framing right because you've now you're taking on two or three full-time jobs the full-time job of
49:18
creating the full-time job of selling the full-time job of marketing the accounting I know that I didn't know
49:24
that now I'm in I'm in chronic labor all the time
49:30
but but you're like you're you said you're feeling joy every day so this is
49:36
this is like the trade-off it's the the tasks of a joyful life versus the
49:43
feeling like you can't do this another second longer whatever that life would
49:48
have you know what I mean whatever the other tasks we commit ourselves to no I mean I I feel like I feel like I am
49:57
really for the first time I'm fully awake
50:02
I'm fully alive I'm fully present what what this career asks of me is
50:11
everything I want to do and be and give wow
50:16
that I mean that's got to be an amazing feeling right there it is it is I mean I I've I think the
50:23
first year that I was doing this full time I just kept saying I'm awake I'm
50:28
awake now I'm awake laughs
50:33
of course although sometimes it's not in the best way remember I did the I think it was
50:39
2019 I did a dogwood show and this pop-up horrible
50:44
pop-up storm happened as we were in the midst of tear down and no one knew it
50:49
was coming all of my work was on the ground behind my booth I was taking it
50:55
all down and I was taking the tent down when it happened and I was just in shock
51:01
and to my neighbor you know someone who's probably young enough to be my daughter ran up to me grabbed me by the
51:08
shoulders and shook me and said you have to move because I just I just like I was
51:15
unprepared I didn't know what to do she's like do you have tarps and I go uh-huh we need to cover your artwork now
51:22
wow right and yeah I mean that's just it I
51:30
mean this this business creates a community where we we are there for each
51:35
other and she looked over and she saw that you weren't having that that dig in
51:41
and do what we all need to do and she's like she couldn't stand to see everything that you had back behind your
51:49
booth destroyed so she you know let you know what to do I mean we all help each
51:54
other so generous so generous and that is exactly I I found the artist that
52:00
these shows to be so generous and so kind and so willing to walk over and not
52:06
in a demeaning way but just walk over and say hey let me show you how to roll up your tent sites right there's
52:13
actually a trick if you're alone yeah you can't roll it up you know you have to fold them in and then I didn't know
52:19
any of this so uh people are constantly helping well
52:25
now my husband travels with me a lot so that's not so bad there are two of us but when I was trying to do it alone uh
52:32
you know it was a real challenge well would you say that I we talked a
52:38
little bit earlier this week uh getting ready for this uh episode uh you had
52:43
said that your friendship with Dana Chavin you met her at an art show and you became just great friends and that
52:49
kind of LED you down the road to some really good mentorship yes well yes Dana
52:57
and I met at an art show and we were we were instantly like we must have been sisters
53:04
in a previous life or something so I was we were both smitten and still are with
53:10
each other and and then she had this husband Daryl yes um who I didn't pay much attention to
53:16
Daryl Thetford has become a bit of a rock star on this podcast I think just about everybody mentions how he has
53:23
helped them along the way so that's going to turn into Six Degrees of Separation with Daryl Thetford it's
53:30
um it I think so because you know what here's the thing he is the most giving I
53:37
know that his career is busier than mine but I text him not as much now but at
53:43
first and and I would say I'm sorry to bother you I'm sorry to bother and every time you would say you're not bothering me at
53:50
all he's he has been so completely generous and without him I would not be
53:57
in the right shows I mean he is constantly constantly telling me to do
54:02
things that make me uncomfortable oh what's an example of one of the uncomfortable things you're talking
54:09
about drive across the country or figure out how I mean if it were up to me I would only be doing shows that were you
54:16
know within probably five hour drive of myself the first time I got into La
54:22
Quinta I applied only because he said applied to this show it's good as
54:27
uncomfortable as I was I was also so appreciative that someone would
54:32
would give so generously of their time that I thought whatever he tells me to
54:37
do I'm really going to try to do it yeah I really pretty much have
54:44
um he has created many levels of discomfort for me I think it's
54:50
interesting because when I first started in this in this business
54:55
um and I came to it with my own sense of well what will people buy who's out
55:00
there what's kind of that spending threshold and I don't come from wealthy background and so I'm like well who who
55:07
would spend 500 on a piece of glass or who would spend whatever not even aware
55:13
of who's out there and what people are collecting like I did a show around the
55:19
holidays when we first started and I had this in my mind that it was a gift show and I needed to make everything in gift
55:27
price ranges and I show up with things that are under fifty dollars and the
55:32
neighbor that I had next to me they had expensive work I mean very expensive work and I said I thought this was a
55:38
more like a gift show they said it is a gift show and then she said there's all levels of gift giving rich people give
55:45
gifts too their gifts might be a thousand dollars or up but yep and it really shifted my my mindset of
55:53
who is our audience who is collecting like what do they want from us do they
55:58
want low price same that they could get anywhere down the street or in a in a
56:05
store sure it's our goal to shoot for the fences and if you're at a nice show these
56:11
people are probably living in a big house a couple of them for that matter a couple of them exactly
56:18
yes well we've had to deliver some pieces to homes now that I'm working
56:25
bigger yeah and I and I I'm shocked at how the other half lives yes these are
56:31
some nice places for sure well let's talk about your work I mean how how did
56:38
your work evolve from when you first um were showing it at art fairs and
56:43
where you are now well I've always been since College I
56:49
realized in college that I was a figure painter that's just my just my first and really only true love so I was always
56:57
working with this singular female format image but within that I've almost I
57:05
don't know if it's part of being add but I would do the figure for a couple years and then I do still lives for a year or
57:11
two and then I would do them in different mediums well I'll do it pastel
57:16
well now I'm going to do it in I did do paper collage not at all in the way that
57:22
I'm doing it now but I I did that I did I even had a little foray into briefly
57:28
into landscape pastels okay which I totally enjoyed even though I'm a terrible landscape artist I used a lot
57:36
of fun colors so I kind of cheated in that way but let's see when I was doing
57:41
shows sort of part-time I did a a palette knife a floral series
57:48
and still life series and I would just kind of mix it up because I really
57:55
really did not understand having a cohesive body of work I would show up to
58:01
these art fairs with I got a little bit of this and I did a little bit of that and um kind of like wanting to have like
58:08
thinking of it as a retail situation where you're trying to have something for different tastes
58:15
yes but then also because that's just sort of how I worked I was very sporadic
58:20
I was doing this and then I was doing that and my focus would only stay on
58:27
something for a certain amount of time before I would jump ship and do something else and when I started doing
58:34
this figurative series and it was being well received my husband said please
58:39
please I beg of you do not switch gears and you know let's just stick with this
58:46
for a little bit yes well every piece is
58:52
so different yet it is a cohesive body so tell me how do you from each piece
58:58
have its own unique vision and voice and all of that stuff boy you know I I wish
59:04
I knew I think a big part of it is the decision of what paper you're going to
59:10
use because the the paper is the star of the show the paper paper depending on
59:16
what you choose to use for the face or for the background is going to a large
59:22
part dictate the way the rest of the piece goes so you make a decision like
59:29
for example I did one piece where I made the decision to paint the face on top of
59:34
a a crazy orange and black and green marble paper okay and yet my idea for
59:41
the piece was that she was sort of this a quiet uh you know she had this like
59:48
sort of normal everyday outfit on but she had this crazy face because you
59:54
can't you can't paint on top of paper that has this these wild black lines
1:00:00
going through it and make something that's subdued so it took me a while and
1:00:06
many many many revisions to realize that I I had that first choice that I made
1:00:12
had to dictate all the rest of the choices I made and she ended up being one of my
1:00:17
strongest pieces I work with with women of all different ethnic Origins and every piece starts
1:00:24
with a very realized drawing um because when I'm laying that line
1:00:31
drawing out on the canvas I have to know exactly where the papers are going so
1:00:36
obviously if I'm working with an Asian image I'm going to use papers that reflect an Asian Motif for the most part
1:00:45
but I am I'm taking big sheets of paper and I'm cutting tearing reassembling
1:00:51
them recreating a figure a new figure out of many many many different pieces of
1:00:58
different paper okay is the entire the entire piece covered in the different
1:01:04
papers and then the paint goes on top of that exactly the entire surface of the
1:01:10
canvas is always first covered with paper and then the features are painted on top of that paper
1:01:17
one of the things I'm taken by with what you're describing is it really feels to
1:01:22
me like when I look at your pieces that the color and the texture in these
1:01:28
papers are reflecting an internal kind of place where your your subjects are
1:01:33
and depending on how you piece things together
1:01:39
even if they have a neutral expression on their face it seems to let me know what's going on inside their their inner
1:01:45
dialogue yeah you know it it's really great to walk around with with the patrons at the
1:01:52
show because many times I have an idea in my head and then I talk to them and
1:01:58
and then I go oh yeah and there's that too and oh yeah it's probably really about that too so it's it's sort of an
1:02:07
ongoing I think I'm the more I work on them and the more I talk about them with
1:02:14
other people the more I actually begin to see because it's weird when you're working on a piece you're your in it in
1:02:24
a strange way it's a silent dialogue because you're not having it out loud or
1:02:30
verbally it's just a it's a feeling I have a feeling when I'm working on a
1:02:35
piece but I don't I'm not trying to Define it by words and when I take them
1:02:40
to shows and I have to talk about them and other people want to talk about them then they really become much clearer
1:02:49
even to me about what they're about and one of the things I discovered this year
1:02:56
being under the tent with them and it's weird to say that this is a surprise to
1:03:01
me but it it is they're all really strong women and I believe they're all what I'd love
1:03:07
to be the things I love the things that maybe I think I don't qualities I don't have
1:03:14
in me but I want them I want them to be thoughtful and I I want them to be strong and I
1:03:22
think that when I stand there in the booth and I look around at them all I go yep and I had a customer a couple years
1:03:29
ago asked me the best question ever okay she said how do you know when a piece is done
1:03:35
and I said when I know her when I have that moment where I step back from the easel and I go I know you
1:03:43
and if I don't ever get that then she's not done she's not right
1:03:48
so are these women aspects of you I feel as more of what
1:03:53
I'd wish to be or I admire or what I've seen in the women that I've known or been
1:04:01
exposed to I think that women have a really unique strength it's different
1:04:08
than a male strength in that a woman has learned over
1:04:15
different cultures and centuries to be strong in a quiet way
1:04:21
and I I think that really intrigues me that I look at them and they're I feel
1:04:27
like they're not being loud about it they're not being obnoxious it's just there
1:04:33
and I think that that's what women are I mean they now I've never had children of my
1:04:41
own but being a mother raising children you're you're creating the future
1:04:46
generation women are just amazing they have an amazing strength
1:04:53
do you think this quiet strength you're talking about is a societal Norm that
1:05:01
gets put upon them or how they have been able to throughout the years exist I
1:05:07
think it's sort of both I mean that's how Society that's where Society has
1:05:14
sort of placed us and I'm certain we I know that we are breaking out of that
1:05:20
and have broken out of that and whether we do or not I don't think it's a
1:05:26
downside I think it's a really unique amazing quality we can be both
1:05:31
and I value and respect both well there is a definitely an aspect of your work
1:05:37
here that has a very traditional kind of feel to it being portraiture
1:05:43
your figures are dressed in somewhat historical type outfits and yet what you
1:05:51
bring to it is a very contemporary eye and a vibrancy and a color and a real
1:06:00
current feel so I mean is that something that was intentional to have it be kind
1:06:05
of like uh throughout the ages kind of a feel
1:06:11
um yeah I I think so you know I wish your traditional uh a painter I was just
1:06:16
working in oils doing figures before I made this switch it was definitely a
1:06:22
decision like what can I do to make this body of work more current to make it
1:06:28
feel more current because I think my my nature is and I did portrait work for
1:06:35
several years so my nature is to always go to something that has a traditional
1:06:41
realism about it and yet I find that to be boring not as stimulating and I I
1:06:48
thought there has to be another way for me to be true to myself but be more
1:06:54
interesting about it so that's the decision to incorporate the paper was
1:07:01
almost in a strange way like giving myself a handicap you know like I used to work sometimes with my left hand
1:07:07
because then I couldn't draw the figure accurately because I didn't want to and
1:07:13
what I've learned with the paper is to simplify I have to reinterpret I'm not going to
1:07:21
draw and paint every fold of the outfit she's wearing in most all of my pieces
1:07:27
the figure is covered in a simplistic patterning
1:07:33
or it's it's almost shrouded you see the hands you see the face you don't see a
1:07:39
body none of my women have breasts that you can see or are voluptuous or have
1:07:46
it's not about the physical there's not enough objectification about them
1:07:52
they're beautiful but it's almost like what you said the sensitivity and the strength is what shines through well I I
1:07:59
hope that's that's what people see I mean I you know I I remember thinking
1:08:04
when I started this series these pieces are not going to be my commentary on
1:08:09
whether or not I can get the anatomy right or the proportions correct or it's
1:08:15
going to be about something else it's an interpretation you know it's the the less said The more interesting it is
1:08:23
well yeah and it does definitely make you look at the face look at the
1:08:28
environment and think what's This Woman's story is she a queen is she you
1:08:34
know a common person is is she a mother is she lonely is she got a lot on her
1:08:41
mind I mean is she angry what's going on you can see and you can just you really sit and talk through what's going on
1:08:49
with with these pieces yeah yeah well I know I remember that was one of
1:08:55
the things that Daryl Thetford said to me uh after one of my shows where I
1:09:01
didn't do so well that he sat me down he said okay what did you what did you do wrong so he wanted me to tell him what
1:09:08
do I say to people when they come in my booth and at some point he stopped me and he said you know what he said people
1:09:13
don't want to know how you made it as much as they want to know why you made it
1:09:20
and I thought that was really sound advice I just was caught up on the well
1:09:25
I do this and then I do that and then I lay paper and then I and there and and yet the body of work has a very strong
1:09:32
spiritual quality to it and I wasn't talking about that well tell us about
1:09:38
that so what is the spiritual component that you're talking about there are a lot of layers to my work
1:09:44
embellishments go back and forth there's paper and then there's paint then there's stencil and there's paper again
1:09:50
there is a lot of layering it represents for me the layering of Who
1:09:55
We Are that that we are the consequence of all of our years of
1:10:02
life experience that's built up and layered upon us over time
1:10:08
and that's what creates a person slowly all these experiences that they've had
1:10:14
your work also to me almost feels like across lifetimes but it does almost feel
1:10:20
like it's it's the same woman only in this is her lifetime in China or this is
1:10:26
her lifetime here or there I mean does that play into it is that kind of part of your beliefs or your spiritual that
1:10:32
goes into it I I I don't think that it's of it as the
1:10:38
same woman over time you know what I'll be honest I a lot of it I understand the
1:10:43
reference to history because a lot of the The Outfits they're wearing seem
1:10:48
very historical in my research I'm I am really merely
1:10:54
just looking for outfits and that may be a bad word but
1:11:00
that feel powerful and a lot of those outfits are
1:11:06
historical I mean you know we don't walk around nowadays in Elizabethan costumes
1:11:12
and uh although I can see because I really still feel like I'm even just
1:11:18
getting started on this body of work it's not that I'm not interested in the current women I definitely am and I you
1:11:26
will see more of those images I think as I as I go along I have a couple that have been extremely popular that are our
1:11:33
current images so I haven't discounted that but my bigger pieces seem to call
1:11:39
for a bigger presence a bigger outfit and and I see a lot of that in history
1:11:50
um feminist issues women's roles is that an intention behind yourself or your
1:11:58
work or is that just a side thing is that just what yeah other people bring to it you know I mean it's definitely
1:12:05
there I can't say that I I'm sitting here saying I need my next
1:12:12
piece to be about women's rights I am certainly aware of what's been happening in the news and I and I
1:12:19
understand that this really is kind of the time of the woman yeah you know we're we're sort of standing up and and
1:12:26
saying hey you know we're equal we really really are equal I'm aware of that and I'm happy to be in
1:12:35
the arena with that but I also wouldn't say I'm not a woman's libber who wants
1:12:41
to stand up on the podium and Shout women's rights you're not trying to say
1:12:46
in your work about a political or a a social rights kind of advocacy your work
1:12:55
is reflective of shining a light on women and Shining a light on their
1:13:00
strength and their sensitivity and who they are through time and your vision of that and it kind of meets the moment
1:13:07
where there is a celebration of women's roles throughout time and it is kind of
1:13:15
like right at that perfect point it kind of is and yet I mean I was
1:13:21
making I've been drawing and and painting the female uh figure for over 30 years so I didn't
1:13:29
like jump on the wagon I have been on the wagon for a long time in just the fact that it's just all that I I want to
1:13:36
paint and draw the female figure is just and I ca I couldn't tell you why it's
1:13:42
just the only thing that interests me yeah well I think I I come to this topic
1:13:49
being a little more aware than other people who fit my demographic a 50 year
1:13:54
old white guy because I grew up the son of a single mother who struggled and in
1:14:00
the 1970s and 1980s there weren't other families in our neck of the woods who
1:14:05
came from a divorced family and I saw the kind of struggle that she had to do
1:14:11
in order to put food on the table and she had to work three times as hard for
1:14:18
less money to support a family and then when I went off to college which kind of
1:14:23
is interesting to me your analogy of hoping your business was ready to go off to college
1:14:29
that's when she was able to make a shift and pursue her higher education and start
1:14:36
her career oh wow and I've always admired that because you know she's in
1:14:42
her 40s maybe getting close to her 50s and she could have just been like okay well the second half of my life is going
1:14:48
to be about just getting to retirement but instead she thought I've got Life to
1:14:54
Live and I've got stuff I want to do and if I don't make that shift now it's just
1:15:00
not going to happen so it's time for me to to put myself forward since my
1:15:06
children don't need me to do that for them anymore that's amazing that's amazing and you know what that that's a
1:15:12
woman because what did she do when when you were little she did whatever
1:15:19
her child needed you came first right I mean that's an amazing quality that uh
1:15:25
so many women have and and yet didn't forget herself
1:15:31
right she didn't just like leave leave it behind I'm sure it was a struggle to come to that
1:15:38
realization of okay now I'm gonna put myself into debt to get a college education to start a career that most
1:15:44
people would have started you know 20 years sooner how scary it is and but I
1:15:50
think about that when you told me the story about you walk in your dog and you kind of had
1:15:56
that same moment too where it had been rattling around your brain for quite a while
1:16:02
the time for it to really sink in that there were no other choices you really needed to
1:16:09
to do your work and to do it in the way that you'd been wanting to do it
1:16:15
yeah I mean it it was scary
1:16:20
it was a Liberation from also from that sense that you
1:16:26
always have to make the right decision the one that that I
1:16:31
don't know that makes sense to everyone else well that's maybe part of this this
1:16:37
talk is understanding too that women have their roles were often subjugated
1:16:45
to what everyone else would have consensus on and all the time yeah yeah
1:16:52
and just being able to say I want to do this because I want to not because
1:16:59
you're a man or a woman your decision is based on what you as a person want to do
1:17:05
yeah well you know when I graduated from high school my parents and I and I and I got some
1:17:12
you know like most talented senior or something when I graduated but so you
1:17:18
know it was kind of known that I was an artist but both of my parents at the time said well that's really nice but
1:17:25
now go get a job because you can't go to art school you can't you can't do
1:17:31
anything with that so I didn't I got a job and and I worked until I was 26. and
1:17:40
the reason that I went to art school is that my younger sister five years younger than me it's almost like it was
1:17:46
just a totally different generation in time even just five years see I was just gonna I was just gonna do what they said
1:17:52
okay and not not cause any trouble when she graduated from high school she said no I'm going to go into fashion design
1:17:59
and that's what she did okay it destroyed me because I thought wait a
1:18:05
minute that's that's as dumb as being a fine artist right well when you say dumb based on what you would think your
1:18:11
parents would based on what exactly put upon you right so
1:18:16
um she she actually went her first year she was a business and major and then she switched to fashion design and and
1:18:23
she was actually extremely ended up owning her own business in New York for 21 years she was extremely successful at
1:18:31
it but when she made that decision then it I always say that was the best thing
1:18:36
to happen to me because then I said okay I can do that too you you gave yourself the permission and I could now do a
1:18:42
little pushback and say well yeah things are different well no I'm gonna do it yeah so then I so then I went to Art
1:18:49
School it's like you know and and moving and moving through time and and society and
1:18:56
norms and as everybody can just live their their best life or their true life out loud it's an example then to people
1:19:04
around us that yeah you know what I mean you were she was an example that made
1:19:09
you feel like you could make that choice but now by you doing your authentic life it's an example to other people other
1:19:16
women who might look to you and say well I want to follow her lead oh yeah I've
1:19:22
had this conversation probably at every show I have about three or four conversations where I I meet the soul of
1:19:30
another woman and and we just have this incredible conversation and I feel like
1:19:36
they walk away with something really special and I walk away with something
1:19:42
really special that that we shared with each other and that can be enough reason
1:19:47
right there to have gone to that show wow it I mean
1:19:53
we've got to make a living we've got to support ourselves but there are so many
1:19:59
benefits we get from this life that goes so much beyond the monetization and the
1:20:04
and the career type things it's that connection with other people yes and
1:20:11
learning about ourselves which fuels the work I mean yeah yeah I mean in these people I mean these
1:20:19
people come to art shows because they do have a love of the Arts you know
1:20:25
bless them I have a love of the Arts and and they want to see everything that's out there I mean they're they're
1:20:33
little sponges and we have to feed them yeah oh well then they feed us I mean it's that symbiotic thing
1:20:40
well you know I talk I talk I do I talk to everybody when I'm there I mean I
1:20:45
talk to kids I talk to dogs I talk to everybody what did the dogs say back
1:20:52
you know supposed are some of my best conversations
1:20:59
wow because they let me do all the time
1:21:05
wow well looking back on you know your experiences
1:21:11
um I think I know the answer to this one but I'm just curious what you might say you know do you have any regrets as to
1:21:18
not doing what you're doing now sooner or did it really lay the groundwork or the foundation that needed to be done to
1:21:26
get you to this point you know that I feel like that's the question that I'll never know I mean
1:21:33
certainly when when I started this series of work and it was so real well
1:21:39
received really from the beginning pretty much just it was just boom out of
1:21:44
the gate certainly I did go oh my God why did I wait why did I wait what was I doing
1:21:50
what was I thinking but my husband has assured me that it happened when I was
1:21:56
ready right it happened when it was time and since I can't change the past I'm
1:22:04
gonna go with that I'm gonna go with that the other part of it is that it's going to keep me young
1:22:12
like when I think about I turned 60 a year ago and I thought oh my God you
1:22:18
know I don't have time I don't but then I also thought I don't have time for this either I don't have time to sit
1:22:24
around and think about whether or not I'm getting old I have way too much to do I'm I'm much too busy living my best
1:22:32
life to worry about how old I am wow sounds like an Oprah an Oprah episode right there
1:22:42
oh my gosh yeah well to finish up do you have any advice
1:22:48
to anyone out there kind of like struggling with those same issues as you do you have any advice to them
1:22:55
you know one thing that's been sort of stuck in my mind this year my aha moment
1:23:02
this year was that I'd want to say to any any person male or female young or
1:23:09
old that the only one standing in your way of your dream is you
1:23:16
wow all right well this has been a good talk
1:23:21
I really appreciate everything you had to share it has been fun it's been
1:23:26
really fun I really appreciate you you know just making this sort of platform
1:23:32
available to other artists I have been enjoyed listening to the other podcasts that you've done you and will are great
1:23:39
together we've been having a good time with it and you know it is it's it's uh it's a project that we are having to fit
1:23:46
into a busy show life but we are getting a lot out of it and I feel like the conversations keep getting better and
1:23:53
are growing and we're getting to know each other and there are new values that come out of it every day and
1:24:01
I do feel like as a community out there we are a strong community and having our
1:24:07
voices heard and represented however this spreads and however people come to this podcast and what their their point
1:24:14
if they're a collector or an artist or a show Person s that need to be heard to really see
1:24:20
who we are as artists and people and business people and entrepreneurs and all that stuff so
1:24:26
you know it's really true I I don't know that people uh on the outside can really
1:24:31
understand I mean I'm an artist and I've gone to these shows but I really didn't understand
1:24:37
until I was doing them sort of at this pace how completely dedicated and
1:24:45
self-motivated and self-disciplined and that every artist at a show I mean when
1:24:52
they give an award I really want to say this belongs to everybody this belongs
1:24:57
to anybody who is standing up and doing this with their lives it belongs to
1:25:03
everybody yeah it's true that's great yeah thank you so much Cindy you have a
1:25:09
good one and happy happy New Year to you thank you you too yes it is upon us it
1:25:15
is we'll see you at a show down the road here that sounds great all right bye-bye thanks a lot uh-huh bye-bye
1:25:22
great talk with Cindy Douglas I had not met Cindy before I was aware of her
1:25:27
amazing work but it was really cool to hear you sit down and talk to such a talented artist one of my favorite parts
1:25:33
of that talk with her was when she admitted that she was at first unwilling
1:25:38
to look for other choices she just said I'm gonna make this Choice I'm going to make the choice to have the frame shop
1:25:45
even though she went into it feeling like it wasn't quite right right and I
1:25:50
love that she was able to share that and then to say that once she started
1:25:55
stepping out of her comfort zone that was when things really started happening for her you know to that point uh
1:26:03
something that a lot of artists go through and I went through at the beginning of my career when you're
1:26:08
trying to hang on to a separate career or a separate job where you're just working a job and you're also trying to
1:26:15
do this on the weekends this is not a hobby that we do this is not something that you can half-ass so I totally
1:26:22
responded to her element of that I actually started out in a frame shop as well it was I was just a worker bee but
1:26:28
it was uh you know to learn all of the skills of handling art and how to frame
1:26:35
it how to treat it uh it's an invaluable experience so I really loved hearing about that you know one thing I would
1:26:42
have asked her is um did she keep all that framing equipment do you know
1:26:48
um while she did say that the framing is an important aspect that she says needs
1:26:55
to be considered and I did look at how well done her frames are so I wonder if she does do her own frames but I didn't
1:27:00
ask her that directly no the funny thing with my full circle story is that I went back when the frame shop went out of
1:27:06
business my my art career was established and I went out and the frame shop that I used to work in I bought a
1:27:14
bunch of the equipment that ended up being sold at auction so I have a lot of
1:27:19
that stuff I've got the old wall cutter that I used to use when I was in my 20s it's uh up on the wall in my wood shop
1:27:25
so kind of some kind of a cool thing um you know another thing that she said that rang true and we don't have to
1:27:31
dissect every portion of this podcast but is knowing when a piece of artwork is done you have the benefit of being a
1:27:39
glass blower where you don't have to work something to death when Renee and you finish a piece it's done it has to
1:27:46
be it's not like you can go go back and rework it nope we can do a new one but we aren't redoing the one that's in the
1:27:52
oven that's if it's put away it's done yeah so she has to recognize the human that is inside of her painting I have to
1:28:00
go about it a different way where I have techniques that I use and stages of the
1:28:05
piece that I Implement so when the last phase of it is done the piece is done I
1:28:10
never go back in and rework a face or rework a a person that's in in my painting I just I have to do that or
1:28:17
I'll drive myself insane it's interesting how we all handle uh our own
1:28:22
businesses and that's why we do what we do Douglas it's uh to sit down and get inside the heads of our peers yeah you
1:28:29
know speaking of that we had such an amazing response at the end of last episode it's been building all season
1:28:36
but we had so many people jump on to Apple and and give us some great reviews
1:28:42
we're really touched and we really appreciate reading each and every one of them and if you haven't done that and
1:28:48
you are interested we'd love it if you could jump on and give us a review it
1:28:53
does help our analytics it helps spread us further uh in the podcast promotional
1:28:59
World it really does uh it does our heart good to jump on there and and see
1:29:05
those five star reviews and um if you don't like the show why are you still listening it's right at the end so don't
1:29:10
don't drop any Deuces on us we need those five stars we need some help people so uh log on to Apple or Stitcher
1:29:18
or Spotify or um whatever you you use to listen to the podcast and uh let us know
1:29:24
what you think and another announcement when your episode dropped into your subscription box today you might have
1:29:31
noticed we have a new look a new album art designed by Dylan strzinski I love
1:29:37
the album art and I love how much he hated the old one inspired to uh to help us out he's like
1:29:44
you guys gotta get rid of that 80s horror slasher logo right now so uh it
1:29:50
definitely helps us uh with our presence on uh all the different platforms so
1:29:55
thanks so much Dylan thanks Dylan and such a great response overwhelming response to what you did and we are so
1:30:02
grateful for getting involved in addition to that we have some announcements uh his film the life we
1:30:07
make it is being shown at two new festivals yeah this is really exciting he's got uh the first Festival is the
1:30:14
Red Dirt film festival in Stillwater Oklahoma and um the other one's all the way up North
1:30:20
are good friends from the north there in Toronto the geek Fest Toronto in Toronto
1:30:25
Ontario so that's really great news that's exciting it's getting exposure like that and it's being seen and played
1:30:30
and and we're gonna try and keep uh putting out announcements about it so as soon as we can all watch it we can see
1:30:38
the great film you can check things out online at lifewemakedoc.com
1:30:43
a doc lifewemakedoc.com for all of the different Festival information if you're
1:30:48
in Oklahoma or Ontario go out and see it get your mask on go get out and get get
1:30:54
some culture all right everyone thanks for listening this week and there's a lot of us heading down to Florida doing
1:30:59
shows be safe out there make some money keep it between the ditches folks we'll see you next week
1:31:06
podcast is brought to you by the National Association of Independent Artists the website is
1:31:12
naiaartists.org also sponsored by zapplication that's zapplication.org and while you're at it
1:31:19
check out Will's website at willarmstrongart.com and my website at
1:31:24
cigarithglass.com be sure to subscribe to this podcast to be notified when we release new episodes
1:31:34
foreign



English (auto-generated)