The Independent Artist Podcast

Before the Banter/ SPECIAL EPISODE

November 21, 2022 Douglas Sigwarth/ Will Armstrong Season 2 Episode 22
Before the Banter/ SPECIAL EPISODE
The Independent Artist Podcast
More Info
The Independent Artist Podcast
Before the Banter/ SPECIAL EPISODE
Nov 21, 2022 Season 2 Episode 22
Douglas Sigwarth/ Will Armstrong

Working Artists! You are not alone! In this week's SPECIAL EPISODE, Douglas and Will chat for the entire episode about current topics in the art show world. They also discuss the important moments from their past that have shaped how they navigate their current career choices.

Visual artists Douglas Sigwarth and Will Armstrong co-host and discuss topics affecting working artists. Each episode is a deep dive into a conversation with a guest artist who shares their unique experiences as a professional independent artist. 

PLEASE RATE US AND REVIEW US.......... and SUBSCRIBE to the pod on your favorite streaming app.

VENMO/ username @independentartistpodcast or through PAYPAL.ME by clicking on this link

Email us at with conversation topics, your feedback, or sponsorship inquiries.

Mailing List

The National Association of Independent Artists (NAIA).

Music  "Walking" by Oliver Lear
Business inquiries at


Support the Show.

Show Notes Transcript

Working Artists! You are not alone! In this week's SPECIAL EPISODE, Douglas and Will chat for the entire episode about current topics in the art show world. They also discuss the important moments from their past that have shaped how they navigate their current career choices.

Visual artists Douglas Sigwarth and Will Armstrong co-host and discuss topics affecting working artists. Each episode is a deep dive into a conversation with a guest artist who shares their unique experiences as a professional independent artist. 

PLEASE RATE US AND REVIEW US.......... and SUBSCRIBE to the pod on your favorite streaming app.

VENMO/ username @independentartistpodcast or through PAYPAL.ME by clicking on this link

Email us at with conversation topics, your feedback, or sponsorship inquiries.

Mailing List

The National Association of Independent Artists (NAIA).

Music  "Walking" by Oliver Lear
Business inquiries at


Support the Show.


[Music] foreign


artist podcast sponsored by the National Association of Independent Artists also


sponsored by zapplication I'm will Armstrong and I'm a mixed media artist I'm Douglas sigworth class blower join


our conversations with professional working artists


good morning sir I was I was looking forward to to seeing you in your hospital bed yeah it's like a Joseph


Conrad novel a little Heart of Darkness going on how's it going don't start wasting the goodies before we start I'm


recording [ __ ] it is on I got a hot mic hey welcome to the show everyone we are


recording here in my uh recovery suite at the sigworth residence nice nice so


the sigworth ranch nice to see you sir and uh you seem like you're in good spirits I am in good spirits I'm feeling


fantastic after being isolated for one week seeing your face is really brightening up my day let's just say


Jesus you are you are having a hard time right I'm hang on I'm gonna go call


Renee I'm not sure they're doing as well as you say oh no I know how you're feeling but um


God I just had a big bite of biscotti I've gotta um I feel like I've got sand in my mouth nice to be back here on the


podcast we've got a couple of hiccups along the way which have put us in the mood to record uh it's sweeps week it's


a very special episode well it's Thanksgiving week so we're giving the listeners what they want really because


I texted my wife and she's like yeah I'm not gonna I'm not gonna listen


We've Got No guest I almost I she was she was actually in a pretty good mood too I just talked to her I was like man


maybe I should just press record on this she'd be a good guest I'll just do that she would make a good guess but she made


it clear early on that this was your project and she didn't want to be on on air no yeah leave me alone I don't wanna


I don't hear about it I don't wanna um while she hears about it but good Lord she doesn't want to be on we'll see


maybe we'll change your mind along the way right well I I think you and I have both talked about the fact that the year


of doing this we'll be talking to people in our booth or just even just you know socially and it'll almost feel like we


should hit record because it's almost like an impromptu podcast recording well when I talk to you if I see you on the


street it typically we'll get into this banter and all of a sudden I feel like I'm you're on I am recording it like you


and I don't really even hang out uh honestly at besides you know doing this


like I didn't really know you before this project yeah so when I do see you on the street I'm like he runs the other


way right I want to save it I'm like save it dude no I don't wanna we're gonna we're


gonna ruin some good [ __ ] uh yeah that's right let's get into like I just I do want to press record that's just the way


it ends up being we do have this kind of natural flow that is on air quality it is it's it's fun sometimes or not


sometimes okay Bert you know I can't imitate bird I can


imitate Ernie hey


bird a few times not intentionally but uh that's our new logo go ahead and sue us


Sesame Street Sesame Street come for us come for us come at me bro well


um aside from the surgery which uh back to that I want to give a big shout out and thanks for all the people who've


sent me messages and good old-fashioned cards man I forgot how nice it is to get


cards in the mail that's been a treat the outpouring of love the grapefruits from Florida you know who I'm talking


about they're um Mickey Cunningham thank you so much Ah that's sweet yeah he's always been so supportive of this show


totally yeah so it's been a great a great week A lot of people are sharing the love and and it's helped me because


going into it it was like I was this tornado of of stress and I've got to get all this stuff done before I can't do


anything and I guess what I've come to realize this week is I'm applying the


kind of type a artist archetype towards this extreme healing I need to


do healthy healthy of you and I was gonna I was gonna jump in there and say you know what um getting cards in the mail means


Douglas what does it mean it means you're friends with a lot of old people that's I hate to tell you what we are


all people whatever you're old people don't be uh don't be


dissing on the card writers out there no I'm sure it's very it's very meaningful


it means somebody had to actually go out buy a card write your name on it say something thoughtful and drop it in the


mail I mean there's a lot more effort than just uh but the other stuff is good too I'm not saying that the the texts


aren't good I beloved all of it if I send cards I like to send like the super inappropriate ones like since you know


like sorry for your the passing of your child or or like the really immature


Valentine's cards for birthdays and things like that like us completely ironic and and off the wall or just make


it look like I've just put zero thought in the selection that has to be expected


or put a dollar in there you're like sorry about the passing your mom and at five bucks


Oh My grandmother used to send cards that were like that that she not like that but she'd send you the two dollars


and be just like random like go buy a milkshake that's hilarious anyway well


this the type a thing I'm talking about is so you know how in our businesses we


have to be like super in control of like coming up with like a new series or


stuff we want to make and we we plan it we execute it and I'm trying to use that


same kind of thought process towards kind of backing off from doing anything so that I can let the healing begin


because after I saw the work that the surgeon done did on my


ankle that I worked at surgeon done what'd you get it done in the set the surgeon did with those long screws and


put some drywall screws and Bones it's like oh man I don't want to mess any of that [ __ ] no not at all I uh I cut a tendon


in my finger when I was in college I was bartending at the Olive Garden and we


could talk about some of the uh the history from different jobs you've had but I was bartending learned to bartend


when I was 21 at the Olive Garden nice and uh I was I was washing dishes and I


grew up in Richmond Virginia and Dave Matthews Band was a great place to go he had a weekly gig Wednesday night at this


little club before he'd hit this talking about being old okay but uh he was he was playing this Wednesday night gig


which was a great place to go and meet girls it was like nine to one girls to guys and so we would love to go in there


we didn't give a rip about Dave Matthews book it was a great place to just go and dance and have a good time but I was


hurrying and I was bartending and you know Olive Garden is a great place to bartend too and learn it because it it's


not actually a bar you want to learn how to do whatever you could put out some wrong mixed drinks and No One's Gonna


even notice or care yeah exactly exactly if you didn't know how to make it at the Albert it was just ramen fruit juice can


you make me a six on the wall it's like yeah sure thing Roman fruit juice what color do you remember well that's how we


make it here honey all right so anyway I was hurrying and I broke a


craft in one of those you know those uh brush wheel things and I broke one of those in my hand and cut a tendon and I


had uh I did that I hurried I was I was you know 21 and had done that to myself and so I've got I've got nerve damage in


that because I I did not listen to the doctor and also got stuck with taking care of it yeah I was just you rushed it


my hand is a club you know and I I jammed the pencils down the cast in order to draw I was in art school time


you know so yeah just I don't know we didn't care so don't do that don't be like me well I remember back when Renee


was pregnant and the doctors were something we had read was talking about how it totally means you at six nice


Douglas you don't really want to hear my story do you just go I'm sorry cut that


[ __ ] too please cut everything it's gonna be Douglas just the rough edit back and it's just me like Douglas you


got all my stuff no but they were but the doctors telling us that a woman who's grown a baby in


her belly is working harder than somebody who's climbing climbing a mountain I don't know if you ever heard


that or if that was all made up [ __ ] but a woman growing a baby in her belly is working harder doing nothing feeling


like she's doing nothing then a person who's climbing a mountain that they are putting in that much effort and so I'm


gonna apply that same mentality to the healing of this ankle I'm dealing with no that's not true she's it's not a


mountain that's just something they say that's something to say to get you to to comply and do another thing the woman


doctor said I've already called somebody honey and now I said woman doctor good night


everybody it's the end of the podcast you said you wanted nauseating banner


and you're getting it so you're wide open I'm jacked on coffee and biscotti sand yeah Scotty we're good to go we're


rolling right through this ladies and gentlemen so hey so speaking of the whole pregnant lady thing let's send out


a big congratulations to our good friends Amber Marshall and Mike Hayes they've got Eloise Jean Marshall Hayes


is born and she is a happy baby awesome yeah huge congratulations go out to


those guys I I got that that text from Mike as well the little picture of the baby I love this this kind of phase for


them where I mean it's just the the pride and happiness and sleepless nights so yeah


um yeah it's it's tough enough but man is it is it going to be worth it for those guys I'm really really happy for


them well I asked Amber if there's any news I could share about Eloise and she said something that maybe I


couldn't hear so I'll just say she's a good eater she said she's a she's a bit of a I don't know would we say titty


monster [Laughter] is that is that allowed on on our


podcast to say that our podcast sure absolutely it's allowed that's that's amazing man so she said she's eating


good she's happy she's she's chunky and just after all the years they are so happy to have her yeah just a huge


congratulations goes out to those guys we could not be happier for you both absolutely she's gonna have a lot of Art


Fair uh uncles and aunts out there ready to spoil her rotten so looking forward to seeing her on the road next year I


remember having a conversation with some people about like raising a baby on the road with all of the art show artists


together just like you know sometimes it goes home with you sometimes it goes home with me and it's just like it's the


collector baby and we just raise it as in our own image to just be our own assistant yeah it's starting to sound


like um slavery well speaking of speaking of child abuse


I had all right you got a child abuse Segway the Segway I had uh collectors back in


the day when our kids would be sleeping in the back of the booth accusing us of giving them a little Benadryl at the shows so um don't do that not good I had


uh I packed a piece of artwork on top of some kids car seats I had a couple mine I was loading this


piece into their car and I'm like I'm like so you really want me to just slide it into the back and it just rested on


top of the kids car seats I was like I could deliver this if you want I'm like and then I gotta get back to my business good luck Junior


don't hit the brake too quick it's picking the nails out of your time oh well so it has been kind of a


stressful couple of weeks here with the art fair acceptances and rejections that seem to be rolling in and it'd be


helpful to have our art fair therapist available for a quick Zoom call to help


talk us down off the lab yeah you know I was thinking about this Douglas now for the show directors that are out there that want to advertise or have their


emails read by all of the artists here's a here's a quick and easy one for you figure out when Jay Downey is going to


announce for Fort Worth I got an email from art in the pearl while I'm waiting for the announcement for Fort Worth I


was like oh art in the pearl let me say that's right let me go on and apply to that that's a great idea that's when all


eyes are captive on the emails talk about a captive audience so just everybody's kind of sitting on the edge


of their city it's similar to what I've experienced with the Uptown Art Fair for years we're waiting not just to find out


if we're in or we're not in I mean that's the first thing that we're like we're on the edge of our seats about because then it's that getting our you


know getting our booth payment in because you feel like you have that sweet spot picked out and I always had that sweet spot on Hennepin that I liked


in Uptown Minneapolis and I felt like if I waited a half an hour after the notifications came that I might lose


that spot yeah I hear you Douglas some of those shows it depends on when you pay for what Booth you get and I do feel


like like this show I'm kicking myself in the ass for this entire podcast I feel like all of these doubles and


corners and and everything all the plum spots that sell out now it's because you


and I are sitting there talking about it like sitting there like kicking myself because everything sells out so damn


quickly I'm like let's sit there and talk about it non-stop dang this podcast we're not talking anymore we're just


gonna air nothing still sitting on my secrets I'm not gonna tell you people where I park so don't ask don't ask any more secrets


because no Mom's the Word no way so it's a tough time of year for me for


example I'm in this art fair Purgatory I'm like collecting wait lists more than


any thing and so I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the ride we'll see where this takes you and Perpetual wait list anyway


I mean you're kind of figuring out maybe that could do you a favor you know I found that wait lists this past couple


of years since covet have has happened yeah you're ready I feel like you can get in off the wait list a lot of these


shows I almost feel like a wait list these days I mean while it feels like a rejection and it feels like Purgatory


you yourself are kind of in purgatory anyway you don't know when you're going to be able to get out and do shows


anyway so well that brings up a good point because we've talked about in past


episodes about how when let's say a jury result doesn't go our way your mind


starts spinning it's like what happened you know what did I do differently what did my work differently did I piss


somebody off and I started to think that way about some of these waitlists I'm like is me talking about my ankle on the


podcast making some of these early shows thinking uh we don't want to give him a spot in case he's not quite ready so I'm


starting to wonder about this whole this whole project here is starting to wonder what we're doing here you know I don't I


don't I don't know that that necessarily has anything to do with it we all are pretty narcissistic but do we really


think that people are actually are you know oh this person is so and so and I'm like to be honest we're just another


application aren't we exactly that's where I ended up after my mind has gone


100 million different directions is not taking it so personally and just


realizing we're gonna put together a good season I'm looking forward to building a season like we've talked


about just staying calm and not panicking you ever use any of those promoters yourself as far as like I


always feel like those guys are good for fleshing out of the Season sometimes like like if you've missed you know


let's say you get a rejection or or whatever and then they might have certain area yeah yeah you're in a


certain area and you're like well I want to go all the way out here for X show and not do something else and you look in you look at some of these promoters


and you're like well I'm going to Florida let me see if they get any room at the end over here yeah definitely that's definitely a a consideration when


you know you've talked about the Panic apply Thing Once yeah you can start coming through so it's like do you start


seeing well what applications didn't I miss if I missed my backup or something like that to try and flesh out a good


schedule still this business is not easy it's not for the faint of heart that's for sure uh yeah no it's not for the


faint of heart Douglas I gotta say I'm I'm definitely balder after this last month


sure definitely just fistfuls my wife's like oh it's uh it's application season


look at the sink because am I rinsing that out honey it's like uh Jesus so aside from the stress of Art Show season


the project that you just posted on social media that you've been working on that seems huge that was amazing it's


been huge and it's been kind of a weird one it's been all consuming for the past couple of months and I've been a little I've been the ante Dolan and Ali Marie I


just I have not been on social media at all on Instagram and posting images uh okay this particular client


I went through the process of setting up this big commission but they wanted to


be kind of wowed when they walked this is a second home for them up in Park City I wanted to walk into the door of


their big ski home and be wowed with this piece on their wall so they didn't want any teasers they didn't want


anything on social so I've been sitting on this thing for the past couple months you're saying they approved the the


piece you were bringing but they didn't want to see it in the space until after they walk in and they see it so


typically a big project like this I'd be teasing out little like okay work in progress I'm working with Goldie for the


first time I'm working with this I'm working on a large scale it's like a 22 foot piece separated into a triptych but


this is funny for you and they're not going to listen to this podcast I know they're not so careful I've got this guy


right okay yeah he is an amazing art installer up there in Park City and so


oh sweet remember last year when I went down to Alabama on my way to Artisphere


where I got covered went down to Alabama and I got this company to make me these


giant panels right Alabama well they're out of business because of me Douglas what yeah they're out right because so


the one of the panels was warped and it freaked them out so badly that I mean they made another one and they were like


we can't Supply people panels if they're going to warp so they're actually they're out of the business and now


they're making tiny homes and they're much happier all right well more power to them but yeah I feel bad for them but


they've still got the equipment now they're making tiny homes they got out of it because of me the first job that they had out of the gate was to build me


these nine foot by six foot plus panels it's just a monster so anyway so I get


these panels I make the paintings over a period of months I go for the install I've got this guy Dave who's in Park


City he's super Zen like really calm unflappable guy and he builds up his


scaffolding it's going over a stairwell he gets the first piece on it's slightly warped install security Hardware which


if you know security Hardware locks 2D work to the wall so you put it on the bottom and it's got these brackets that


way like if you're ever in a hotel and you put your fingers under the the piece and you try to pull the artwork uh yeah


it's stuck on the wall it's like what they use okay in uh I don't know Banks and hotels and stuff keep people uh from


trying to steal the art or having it fall down on them and then getting sued yeah or keep tubing from putting up one


of his masterpieces so uh more on that later but uh yeah so anyway these guys


he he puts it up locks the first two to the wall they look perfect puts the third one on the wall it's like a


freaking banana Like It is worn well this is why I feel like a street artist as opposed to like this white glove


hoity toity Gallery artist I'm like we are Street like we are it's like put the


Motorhead on we're coming in the door and we're putting on the wall however it takes so I put this thing up on the wall


with this guy and I'm helping him hang it and they're way too heavy like they're just monstrously heavy so we've


got cleats put it on the cleat this [ __ ] thing is like a banana it's sticking off the wall so bad and so I'm


like well can you put an anchor in for the security hardware and he's like the the post isn't long enough it's not


going to be strong I was going to pull the whole anchor out and so we're sitting there looking at it and I'm looking around and there's nobody but us


the person for the install the designer is in the other room yapping on the phone and she's she's sitting there


talking and I'm like I look over there and I'm like you got any toggle bolts and he's like and his eyes kind of get


big and he looks at me he's like [ __ ] yeah I got some toggle bolts I was like toggle bolt that [ __ ] the front


of the piece I was like you got any wood fill and he's like yeah I got wood fill so we did it I mean that thing was up


and on the wall and straight and the banana thing was cured in like 30 seconds smear something the hell out of


that thing right yeah just anchored it smeared some wood fill on got the paint out of my my truck pain at the top of


the thing I was like looks like the horse he's standing in another dirt cloud and it's just when we're done dude


just just rock and roll just be done sound like a glass blower after that that's kind of how glass blowers do


things too if you could put a screw through the front of your glass on the install I'm impressed well I'm talking


more like you have to MacGyver stuff you have to be you know you have to make it work so well that's what this was what


I'm gonna I'm gonna cry and be like Oh I'm sorry I'm gonna have to remake the other panel you're not gonna have it for Thanksgiving like no way I'll put a


screw through that horse's eye if I have to that's great I can't wait to see you lay


it out over the next week um and and see how it uh how it all unfolds thanks yeah the whole project is


done but I'm teasing it out on Instagram day at a time kind of showing how I do the process of uh of a commission what


I'm kind of thinking too is a part of my social media game trying to up that a little bit yeah I'm trying to be like


okay well this is how I do a commission I do a lot of commission work and I do a lot of complaining about commission work


but yeah show people what it's like I've got a little sketch that I photoshopped


onto their wall of their space that was being built and to see that start to finish as it kind of unfolds and and to


see how I pitch a commission to clients is I think it'll be pretty interesting for future clients as well as uh past


people so check me out at uh will Armstrong art on Instagram it's just all one word like that so so check me out


there yeah I've been also working on that whole thing too because at first the social media thing felt like it was


a lot of our artist friends kind of like supporting each other and saying way to go it looks great or whatever but really


the focus on these bigger projects are so when we have collectors who come to a show or see us they can go on there


and they could now see this isn't something that's in your booth it's something that we could commission and


you could walk us through it and having a step-by-step of a process even though


a collector isn't going to do a carbon copy of what you did but they know if they like your design they know how


you're going to get them to the end result by going through the process it's really cool yeah and I try to give with my commission stuff I try to give people


this is this is so that I don't hate it as much in the future but I'm like okay


here's the proposal they have a very set proposal and then they can leave me the [ __ ] alone is basically my my goal it's


like just leave me alone let me work I don't like to show a lot of work in progress between you and me and the the


entire listening audience the reason I don't show people a lot of the process because I'm not working on it constantly


right yeah like I'm working on it start to finish and in like look yeah you have to wait for a year but that's just so


I'm scheduling it it's like the year goes by I'm gonna knock it out in two or three days


so if you commission and it may don't contact me in June I mean like how's it coming along I'm like it's not you know


I'm like so I try to shut the door on that it's kind of like with jewelry too because I I've got an in-house Jeweler


too well where Jewelers it's like well I don't want to send you a picture of the bezel that I haven't cleaned up


because you're gonna be like well why does it look like that why is there junk on the edge of it I'm like well I haven't cleaned the burrs off this and I


haven't done this and exactly you don't want to give the collector something that they have to interpret and figure


out what it's going to look like when it's finished so the Midway process it looks not done yet so then it's only


going to be reasons to give hesitation and to feel angst and anxiety and to


want to back off from the project so hopefully Doug the Midway process for me is usually three days before I ship


you know it's like you know but I mean not don't discount that in the fact that


there's a lot going on up up in the brain as to how you're gonna tackle it and how you're going to visualize it and


then once that's all lined up the actual doing part goes pretty quickly right am


I right yeah you're totally right and I do like I'll do a collage first I do people who don't know my work I draw in


pain on top of collage and a lot of times I'll come up with a new idea and I'll do the collage first and I'll have


that collage sometimes if we're up to a you know a year or even two for a new idea where I'm looking at it and I you


you know don't discount the fact that the planning is is part of the creation we're not mechanics no I mean that that


planning and and that's that's what you're charging people for too it's it's not necessarily you know it's it's not


just time spent ink in hand it's times or brush or pen or whatever in hand


right it's it's what is actually yeah the thought process what's going on thought and creatively all about all out


and the sequence so yeah so hang tight we'll be right back


this episode of The Independent artist podcast is brought to you by zap the digital application service where


artists and art festivals connect hey well do you remember the old way of doing these applications with red dots


on the slides and self-addressed stamped envelopes do you still have a rotary phone Douglas no I don't remember that


well I just like that they were with us back then when we made the switch from analog to digital it's a huge switch and


now zap is the industry standard and they're always creating features that make our lives easier too so I do like


what zap does and I do like that most of the shows I apply to are ons application


exactly so I personally appreciate what zap is doing and thanks for not making us reinvent the wheel every single week


like we used to have to do so I was talking a little bit earlier Douglas about my early jobs and and


working Olive Garden and yeah learning how to bartend and I worked there for a couple years and I would work at


different bars and things like that I loved bartending and I always feel like that taught me how to talk to people


like that's what got me to where I am as far as like learning how to sell people


things that they already want um people come to the bar that you know they're getting a drink anyway so it's


really you know you don't have to really upsell them or do anything that was my my kind of early on experience as far as


as learning how to talk to people what what was yours same kind of deal I was in Hospitality I was a little further up


the food chain in uh fine dining but it's kind of the same thing I I learned


how to to talk to people uh who had money to burn who would say spend


three hundred dollars on a bottle of wine I mean someone who I felt was just so above my level I've learned a lot


from one of the servers there who described herself as a lifer she's a good friend her name is Barb Backlund


and she basically told me that I just needed to get out of my own way that these people they showed up to the


restaurant they're already halfway there they want what we're selling and I don't


need to be worried about trying to convince them of anything that you know


if they don't like something it's just lunch it's just dinner they'll come back and they'll have another meal another


day and not take it all so seriously okay yeah where did you do that um it's wa Frost in St Paul right by the


cathedral there W.A Frost is a great place I love that place but a man it was


I mean it was like baptism by fire I mean it's like this intensity of pace


and yet the high class clientele that we're working with it was the perfect


footing before stepping into this this fine art business that I yeah that's


funny because I feel like I learned a lot I did I parlayed into a little find or actually I did a little fine dining


beforehand and then I was working for um actually this this is funny I live in


Santa Fe but I bartended at a restaurant in Richmond Virginia called Santa Fe


um oh weird so funny little story about Santa Fe too is Vince Gilligan the writer and director for Breaking Bad and


Better call Saul yes he used to hang out there and he hung out in our place called Santa Fe and then there was a


sister restaurant up the street called Davison Maine and for anybody who's into


yeah Vince Gilligan's stuff the law office yep exactly he calls it Davison Maine is


the name of the firm so I'm getting actually Shivers those are those are two of my favorite series and I watched


Breaking Bad back when it came out originally and then I have successfully


gone through Better Call Saul twice now and then went back to watch Breaking Bad


so even just by you mentioning Davis and me and I'm like yeah I know that I know that so yeah he used to hang out at


Davis and Maine and then he'd come back in Santa Fe and so that was a little nod to his upbringing and Richmond Virginia


is that he put Davis and Maine in Santa Fe as far as the show goes so and of


course he was hanging out in there while I was bartending do I remember him no not at all he was hanging out the bar


don't remember him at all I'm sure I talked to him and served him drinks but never really kind of like uh uh you


found out about it later and well yeah I mean also I was 22 and in the bar that I served in the ballerinas from Richmond


ballet would hang out so I was kind of like he wasn't Vince Gilligan that I mean he was full again but he you know


or weirdo at the bar with the with a book you know there you go I got you where was your attention yes was 22.


what am I gonna do uh yes I understand I understand how that works so yeah it was


uh but like I did that and then the old cook that was there they hired him to do


head chef over at some kind of upscale hotel and he was like everybody's stealing from me can you come run my bar


for a while so I did that over at the hotel and learned some of that stuff but it's all how we learn Hospitality right


it's it's how we learn to talk to different walks of life absolutely every experience we've had it seems like it


plays an important role into what our present and our future is I mean I say that a lot on the podcast but it's how I


feel and I just get super excited when I'm doing something and all of a sudden I'm like wait a minute this is like a


circle back from this time in my life or that time in my life and I'm like oh why did I do that oh here it comes around


again so I just love it it's just so cool yeah I also learned like I don't want to Hard Sell people anything like


if you want what I have have then then I can talk to you about it and tell you the story behind it but I actually sold


encyclopedias for a summer shut up oh yeah for like three months oh my God


they wouldn't even let you say I'm selling encyclopedias I'm placing Educational Systems and it was just


terrible business and their business model which was go into poor communities


and if you can get in the door then you can sell them the piece because in order to get you out of the door the people


have to admit that they don't want to educate their kids like that's how you right so you don't want to educate and


it's subtler than that but it's it's like that so I learned that I didn't want to do that and they were giving you like a low-grade kind of paycheck kind


of like they you know they pay you two dollars an hour to bartend or whatever because you're getting all your money in tips so they're giving you a low grade


paycheck because they have to and then it's commission based yeah and I learned


really quickly that I did not want to do it but they would take you out on these big trips and you're stuck out there on


this big trip like we're going to take you to Florida and you're out on this big road trip and I mean it was just a


nightmare situation sometimes you're sleeping in this van or the station wagon because there were two cars that


were taking you out there for selling the encyclopedias yeah yeah okay yeah and you're on this road trip and you're


going to these poor communities and I remember being in Georgia and the guy that ran our little group his name was


Todd day he was like I'm Todd day what are we going to do today Todd day this


is It's just so freaking cheesy and so I would go find a place to hang out like they'd drop you off into this


neighborhood and I'd find a place to hang out until they'd come pick me back up and I'd I'd go home and I'm like I


didn't learn anything and I just sat there and I would like hang out and like I just remember like some place in


Georgia near a military base yeah hanging out in with these Navy SEAL guys


they were like what are you doing I thought I was gonna get my ass kicked and they're like and I told him exactly I'm like oh I'm supposed to be selling


encyclopedia is but it's a Cheesy business and I'm just waiting for them to take me home because I'm on a road trip I'm not going to get back till next


week right yeah I'm waiting on my ride here yeah and they're like oh well you want to hang out with us I'm like yeah


so I just went back to their place and we had a barbecue and drank a bunch of beer that's a good point you made about


using fear as as a selling tactic or whatever because I learned that from my


dad he was in the insurance business okay and so their main tactic is to get


into people's homes and have somebody feel guilt about the fact that they don't want to spend money


on life insurance because if you die what's that going to do to your wife can you live with yourself I mean so you


know they really pull up the heartstrings there oh if you saw the downside having a career in that and the


emotional toll it takes on you so he told me don't ever do the hard sell if they don't love it if you sell at all


costs you have a stink on you that you just can't really deal with or live with right so I get what you're saying about


the encyclopedia thing well I mean and I do know I I know some artists that kind


of do the hard sell if you walk into my booth and I'm selling you something yes yeah my main selling technique is is to


just be open and likeable and try to be open to what they're interested in learning and a lot of times they'll be


like please let me know if you have any questions and and just welcome them and just kind of and then if I I see kind of


like they they're not going to ask me any typically nobody ever really asks you any questions so I'm kind of like I


just kind of tell them my story or I'll just leave it open or I'll kind of like


well each one of my pieces tells a story so if you'd like to hear one let me know which one is your favorite it's kind of


as far as that's real inviting yeah you know then they can feel like they they


can ask but they're not being pressured to do that you know what let me know if I can answer any questions and it's just


like okay who the hell doesn't want to hear a good story right yeah so leave it open and be


like hey I'm a Storyteller and I've got one about each one of these pieces and be like whoa what's the story behind


this or I don't know we talked about this too I use kids all the time because kids are


um they really want to hear a story right oh yeah and I'll just kind of get into it with a kid and and talk to them


about my work and then the other people that then that way the other folks that were actually interested me like oh


that's that's cool plus you're not a dick to kids and how is that not likable that is that's super likable that is


like don't be a dick to kids no don't do that how about just don't be a dick


in any any regards for that matter right hey speaking of dick okay let's hear it


uh yeah I'm really done I'm done with Facebook and um I I just I deleted it off my phone I'm really tired of it yeah


uh why why why what's what's up with that why are you done that's not fun anymore


um it's just like it's people in their their little pockets uh complaining


about politics to the people that they that already are opinionated it's like they're not complaining to anybody


that's that's listening they're like you've gotta watch this documentary about how bad Trump is it's like look I


already hate him why why do I have to why do I have to watch another video I'm gonna hate him more it's already my hate


is already in the red you already know how I feel it's not gonna change your mind on it like let's say somebody wanted to convince you he's like the


pulp would they ever be able to to convince you of that no no so what's the point yeah right exactly oh he's


actually a good Christian man he's just flawed like the rest of us F off I don't care you know take your opinion and go


into your own little pocket bubble you're not convincing me I'm not convincing you so anyway I'm just really tired it's like it's not fun anymore and


nobody really has observations that are fun anymore it's just it's like it's


complaining about politics it's your birthday it's uh whatever the only good


thing about it is is the birthday but like honestly like how many of those birthday greetings do you get that are are any more than just


happy birthday hbd like thanks I I like the hbds


because I just respond Ty no but you're right the personal connection thing is is lacking when we


first started in on it it was it was about extending out our friendships across a digital platform sure and now


it is it's really just a marketing machine that will feed us a diet of our


hate and fear you know so yeah like when I when I thought it was fun it's like I


thought it was great for what we all do for a living because our friends across the country you know I might not


see Anthony Hansen for six months but I know what he's up to but he doesn't really post anymore you didn't really


post anything more than just selling yeah um you know I mean talk to you every


other week what the hell do I need to know what you're doing talk to you I joked about this with you


before like you talk to a lot of folks on the phone and no I don't I you don't you're always telling me who you talk to


oh well maybe what's confusing is I use the word talk to in reference to I sound


like my parents it's for messaging okay but I mean I guess my whole point is


like yeah I don't I don't talk to anybody like I just don't like I was I was saying like here's who I talk to on


my phone my wife yeah number one my mom


my dad this was funny about the Armstrongs my dad is a lurker okay yeah


I'll call they still they're old school they've got the landlines sure and they'll pick up and I'll be talking to


my mom for I'm like well is did Dad ever get the the weed whacker fixed and


she'll go um well he's on the phone bill and then he'll like oh yeah I got it fixed he's


been working all over he's already there he's lurking he just doesn't say a word it's really weird well my my uh social


media posts my parents aren't on social media but I have like aunts and uncles


who are so then you extend out the whole telephone game where it's like you post something their siblings come back to


them well I heard Douglas is doing this I heard this is happening and so suddenly then it's like why didn't you


tell me that this was happening I'm like well why aren't you on social media well that's the thing I'd be fine not


knowing a lot of different stuff but yeah you know you go down the list it's like who I even talk to like like with


my voice it's like my wife my mom you actually maybe you before my mom I think I probably talked to you more than I


talk to my mom and then my kids I don't talk to very many people it's just not it just doesn't happen well


it's kind of funny we brought this up recently we were talking about how we do


have this kind of unique friendship in that we record 95 of what we say to each


other [Laughter] that's true and then like the other five


percent is stuff where my mic didn't work or the other stuff it's just nothing you know we talked on the phone


yesterday uh regarding the podcast and we had um we kind of trying to hash out this week's episode because we had a a


couple that's supposed to be on next week that got sick they got covered so Trey and Helene please get better and uh


that's that sucks that's awful to be out of the show and come home with covet I mean that's been the story of this year


for people isn't it yeah uh it's happened well go out go out to a show and get covet on the way that's fun


don't do that not fun now have you did you didn't you get


coveted from uh the show didn't you come back I well I was at Ann Arbor this year


and I was face to face with another artist who didn't come back to the show the next day because he was in his hotel


room realizing he had covid and we were like right there and I felt a little


sick but I never tested with covid and never got sick so no yeah


that's that's funny there was a there were some artists that um in Denver Cherry Creek this past summer that that


we're walking around with coven talking people face to face and not wearing masks and stuff and I'm like that made me feel Punchy yeah not Punchy funny


Punchy punch Punchy like actual punch like physical action action punch well you know moving forward here now that


covet is in our everyday lives and is real is it just gonna be like the flu are people going to get covered and being like I'm I'm still gonna go to


work I'm still going to the show I'm still doing this because we've got vaccines that keep us from dying I mean


is it just gonna be like another cold that's my suspicion yeah I think it already is that way yeah you know my kid


uh my kid got covered and we did the right thing and it she missed like literally the funnest week of the year


like they had they just finished reading The Outsiders and they were going to dress up in leather and watch the movie


and then they were then they had she's an honors Orchestra and she missed the honors Orchestra trip and all the stuff


it was just the biggest bummer she was just like I I don't know I haven't heard my child honestly I've never I cannot


think of a time where I've heard my my child's sobbing before just like not uncontrollable like hiccuping sobbing


yeah just awful I mean it's it's for one in this day and age with with kids in


school you know it can be a pretty rough experience and for them to feel excited


about something and then to not be able to participate in it it's got to be like


so rough I mean uh I remember what our kids went through at that age yeah well


that's interesting my wife was texting me earlier about different topics that we could talk to just about being art


show parents and how do you think that affects your kids career path you know like do you think that that affects them


at all this is kind of interesting I've I've shared on the podcast before that


Oliver my son has helped us kind of at the beginning of this all kind of launching with with the audio


engineering type stuff for the podcast he hasn't been doing it for for a while because College was more important and I


I told him he needed to focus on his future in his career so he's been working on that but he's he's going


through right now a kind of a shift where we all have been there where we


think we're going One Direction and then you kind of have to Pivot and he's pivoting and I feel like this business


has set him up for seeing Mom and Dad have to Pivot and


I feel like that that has built a lot of character and making hard decisions and having faith that taking a new Lane


isn't going to result in a bad situation that it that he has great has confidence


in that so I think that's cool I think that's really that's interesting yeah you know I've been setting up you know


my wife has been doing these weekly shows over at the the um this like a one day or let's barely


even it's like a half day Farmers Market show like I've been talking about and to go over there and realize to be


somebody's plus one at these shows and to do it the way we do it and we're really good at what we do like I know


how to do an art show if you just like when Brad and Sunday helped me set up my show when I blew my achilles out right


they came in and just set it up you're like well we know how to work pro panels you know we don't have a crafter we've


got a trim line but we know how to set this thing up so we'll figure it out in like four seconds like we just know how


to do it from years and years of experience and I feel like my kids have that they know how to do art shows I


have no doubt that my my 12 year old could a figure out something to sell


show up at an art show and sell it do it and break it down like they already have the skill set just you're like I know


how to do it do they want to do it no they're already over it yeah right but if they had to yeah like they could just


like it's kind of funny to have this career that we have that and for them to have the knowledge that they have to to


Parlay into something else and that's kind of what the show has been about like talking about like learning how to


do these tasks that we take from bartending and talking to people who just want to drink Miller lights okay to


uh fine dining and all the different little skills that we pick up along the way you know when you say that about


your kids being able to just jump in and know how to like help my daughter she


she kind of runs our energy almost parallel to how I do oh God so when she was poor thing poor thing I know


but she um you know when her middle school days and she'd come to a show sometimes you know Renee would have to


stay home and Eva would be my you know my assistant at the shows and literally


she could read my mind I'd be like hand me that and boom it's right there hand me the boom and you know you put the


puzzle pieces together in the van and she just she just knew it almost even faster and like she could read my mind


even more than Renee could and so Renee would use to joke she'd say Okay Eva's gonna be my replacement yeah


like I wonder if is she interested in helping out to do shows when you're no


would she go on the road with you guys well she's 25 and she's got her career now so no she won't she won't be free uh


for any of that but I think she'll do for a living she is working as a psychotherapist and she manages cases


for kids who have been severely abused or hard to parent maybe they've been


thrown out of their homes and they live in a residence home so deals with a lot of trauma and helps to get them services


that they need and manages their overall cases so she has a really hard stressful job and I'm really proud of what she's


done for herself in her life yeah that's big work big big important uh work today


I drew a picture of a guy honestly back to politics from earlier that is why I


am a Democrat because of what my daughter does that whole thing everyone


does not have equal footing and I am applaud people like her that helps


people provide services for people so that they can get what they need because a lot of these kids they don't have a


Fighting Chance that's interesting um yeah I mean I don't I don't want to get too political because it's like we


do have uh listeners on both sides of the the aisle I guess but it's it's interesting I was raised by a


conservative family and uh the the family that actually I'd never met like I went to this private school this hoity


toity kind of private school which was the brother School of where my father worked so I went went down the road from


where he worked and it's a pinky out kind of uh establishment and it is you


know it's a fantastic prep school but I didn't even think I knew any Democrats growing up it's like I was raised by


these conservative folks and old school kind of Nixon Republicans my dad hates


uh the current uh Republican party and what it has become but sure I am Deanie's still a republican guy but I


was raised being able to talk to both sides of people and I think I don't even remember that there being the


differences between parties when I was a kid I don't remember we didn't find it out right right it wasn't something that


was broadcast so obviously like it is now right yeah anyway going with your story I mean it uh well the the family


that I met I remember we had this little um we had a little mock election for our


school and it was it ages us again but we've talked about that plenty but it


was uh Carter versus Reagan I remember yeah we had this big uh mock election


and I think Reagan won like 58 to two you know 60 people in our class and I


remember joking with my buddy at lunch and I'm like well who the hell voted for Carter and he's like well one of them


was me you know we're Democrats and he was just proud about being a Democrat I'm like I don't think I ever met him but his family is what kind of pushed me


in that direction of my hippie dippy ways but I just grew up wanting to be one of those those folks my best friend


and his family he just lost his mother last week and I know he doesn't listen but cheers to Mrs Parrott she she was a


an integral part in my raising oh yeah that's really meaningful I mean I I read


what you what you shared about her and how how important she was to you that's that is touching that's a really to have


people to open your eyes like that and to kind of help steer your path a bit sure so you're getting ready for another


big show coming up I'm done with shows for quite a while but you're getting stuff all lined up for a while yeah I


got um you know I I do love the one-of-kind show in Chicago it's always


worked for me and I don't suggest it for everyone and it's odd that I I make it work but I


I will get out there and see some some uh good friends that I've seen on the road for a long time I apologize if I'm


mispronouncing your name but it'll be great to see Marina Terrell out there uh she's close by I'll see Greg Turco he's


my next door neighbor just always look forward to seeing Turco and Michael schwegman around the corner and uh


sounds like old home week it is man I love that show and I love those folks and I love my little neighborhood it


it's you set up a gallery and I've got my walls painted a certain color I've


got bright red walls on two of the walls and I've got a new body of work that I'm


gonna gonna show there too so I'm excited to see how that goes over and and awesome yeah it just seems like I


don't know you get these schedule marks in your year that make it feel like like


this this always feels like the end of the year to me like I get into Chicago and it's winter you know and it's cold


right put your winter coat on and the smell of the Chocolate Factory


art like there's a chocolate factory in downtown Chicago that's just working overtime this time of year and it's just


pumping you know you've got your winter coat on you're all bundled up and it smells like warm chocolate which yeah


the funny thing is like smelling or breathing deep in a big city you're like


it's like oh it smells like really good Italian food and it's it's like somebody


vomited like that's just you're just smelling like you just stepped in somebody's bar if you're just walking across the whacker Bridge it's just I


mean it can be a nightmare in a city but this time of year is is it's beautiful and the lights are out so it feels like


the holidays to me and and again I I'm an open book as far as how I feel about different shows and what they work for


people but that one uh you can ask me off the Record and I'll tell you yeah there is a bit of a romance that happens


with certain events every year like you said these milestones and I know we felt


that way about one of a kind a lot because it is you've got the holidays and you've got the end of the year and


all of that stuff just feels so sweet you know and I know when we had to


walk away from it because it didn't end up working out for us after a couple you know towards the end a couple of times


and it was hard to let go of the other side of it that the other good memories


that come in and then and then that happens to I'm sure a lot of people with certain shows where we keep doing it


because of the feel Goods right that's the financial thing go for a while until


it's like okay now this is this really isn't working I have to let go of the feel good yeah or even Douglas like the


Heartbreak of not getting into a certain show that you've counted on for a number of years you know you get the rejection


and you're like oh my God it's it's almost this this thing of like I've done that show for 12 years and I just got


rejected what what just happened and it's almost this thing of like it really is the stages of grief too you know like


the rejection we're like well you get pissed off and except you know the funny thing about it is like you get the


stages of grief usually start with with mourning and sadness and and then you get to anger but I I tend to start with


anger I don't know that's not true they can come in any freaking order but you


can access the anger one real quick you're saying yeah it is that I mean would not necessarily but it's it's like


it's loss too it is lost it's like you you let a show go and it it like becomes


part of your schedule it's like I mean I remember in the early stages of winter and you start looking forward to


going down when I lived on the East Coast going down to Miami and doing Coconut Grove and you know I really miss


that as far as being so far away and and just being like I can't rationalize Florida from living


in the southwest now and not and having kids and doing all this stuff so I can't necessarily wrap my head around of


getting to Florida now but God I cutting the sunshine and around February that


was a really there's a there's a sense of mourning and loss as far as that goes too it just feels weird but it just it's


just the way it is this might be the first time I'm not even in Florida this year I don't know


you know what's going to happen there and I remember my first time starting a Florida season before my I I went to


Florida I did wholesale season so like my art shows would end in like August or


whatever but then I would do the big buyer's market show to try and sell the galleries over the holidays and then


stay home for the winter and make work for the Galleries and have all the orders filled by Spring and then


hit the Roadshow circuit again and so once that was going soft for me


and I had to reinvent my business model that's when Florida entered the picture


yeah so that has been a constant now and I have done it for


okay like 15 years or something okay and thinking of this year


having to make an adjustment I might be there might not be but not at not with the kind of presence I've we've had in


the past right well you're gonna have to make an adjustment uh just mentally too getting out from the Upper Midwest and


the The Frigid I think I'm like what's that going to do to you psychologically to not go out and see the palm trees and


get down to Miami and Fort Myers and Tampa and all these places it's um like


we had to cancel our you know woe is me but we're mourning the loss of Sanibel because we were planning a big spring


break trip with the kids and um sanibel's decimated it looks like chewed food you know it looks like the


Sanibel honestly it doesn't look like chewed food it looks like you ran over a pine cone with your lawnmower it kicked


it out the other side it just is a nightmare right now and and it's that's what Oliver said in last week's episode


he talked about how it was like you put the palm trees in a food processor down there yeah it's just that decimated yeah


just so um Parts go out to the people down there they keep getting hit with storms and


it's not going to stop any time so that was the one-two punch and yeah so anyway stream climate extreme climate whoa is


us we don't get to see the palm trees you're you're my personal uh choice and


and your [Music] um you footy your little foot your poor


baby food what the [ __ ] that was I don't either all right brother I think we've got


enough for a show do you think we got enough I think we do I think we nailed it before we go let's let's send out our


well wishes to Trey and Helene I hope you guys are feeling better it was


really nice to get to meet you yesterday and and get you all set up for the recording today but no worries once


you're feeling better you gotta that all set up and and you'll be able to jump back on and and we'll get their talk


next time but uh we just had a real good conversation it was really touching to


find out some of the reactions to the show and I really appreciate hearing


from people about what it means to them you know that is what I think is is one of the more valuable things that people


have told me about this is that they feel like they're not alone out totally you're not you're not Reinventing the


wheel yeah you feel like you are every time that you you you hammer out a corner in your craft Hut and and and


take it back down off of a stop sign that it's wrapped around in the 40 mile per hour winds that gusted up but you're


not alone you're not the first person that's done it and and you won't be the last we've got new people coming along


all the time too this is a thriving industry and there's a lot of incredible people out there and being able to


Showcase their stories has been really exciting it has been and sitting here yapping with you about it has been has


been fun and rewarding for me too sometimes sometimes sometimes no you


know we wouldn't have done this show um just the two of us yapping together back and forth if it hadn't been for


engagement on social media and as I know it'll be great for some listeners and and some listeners will be like I only


like the interviews I mean fast forward it like like Dylan strasent okay well fast forward this is not a show for


Dylan this week no no no not not this week so thanks again if you guys have


questions or or want us to address certain points we're always open to it and and are super interested in what you


say you can do it on our social media page on face Facebook or on Instagram just comment on on some of those things


and let us know what you like and don't like and leave us a review by the way we've kind of dried up on some of those


reviews those really help us get more listeners out there so that really helps us out on on any of those uh media


platforms if you like what we're doing please leave us a review drop us a five star over there on on Apple or even more


than just the the Stars we love the stars please do the five stars but even just a review with words it's amazing


how much Apple takes those into heart and then they start circulating you into their into their rotation so that people


will see oh there's a podcast about art show artists out there and it will use


your words use your words that's all and there's one other announcement I've been


working on the YouTube channel so you can now stream the independent artist podcast on YouTube so find our Channel


there hit subscribe and it's not going to be a video podcast it's still just


Audio Only but we will have a tile with the guests images of their work uh we'll


still have the promotional videos on there so it just offers more options for you you know to find out more about us


and about our guests on on the video channel so check out YouTube well


everyone Happy Thanksgiving thanks for tuning in this week we hope everyone has a great great time with family or


friends or whoever you call Family yeah don't talk about politics or uh religion and abortion and or do I don't know


started to mix it up let us know how it goes but have a great Thanksgiving thanks everyone and Happy Thanksgiving


we'll Happy Thanksgiving to you too buddy I appreciate you and uh good luck getting this thing I'll Whittle down


into it into a tight oscar-worthy performance it'll be right and tight all right I know


this podcast is brought to you by the National Association of Independent Artists the website is

1:00:46 also sponsored by zapplication that's and while you're at it


check out Will's website at and my website at

1:00:58 be sure to subscribe to this podcast to be notified when we release new episodes


[Music] thank you


foreign [Music]