The Independent Artist Podcast

One Step Towards the Gods/ Lisa Kristine

October 10, 2022 Douglas Sigwarth/ Will Armstrong/ Lisa Kristine Season 2 Episode 19
The Independent Artist Podcast
One Step Towards the Gods/ Lisa Kristine
Show Notes Transcript

Working Artists! You are not alone!! Lisa Kristine celebrates the humanity within us all that transcends language and culture through her fine art photography.  When approached to document modern-day slavery, she was troubled by what was hidden in plain sight. In this talk, she shares her harrowing experiences to do the work she felt called to do. Her powerful work encourages the viewer not only to form a connection from the head but rather from the heart.

Visual artists Douglas Sigwarth and Will Armstrong, co-host and talk about topics affecting working artists. Each episode is a deep dive into a conversation with a guest artist who shares their unique experiences as a professional independent artist.  This week's preamble topic includes a discussion about the differences between fine art and fine craft.

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[Music] foreign


artist podcast sponsored by the National Association of Independent Artists also


sponsored by zapplication I'm will Armstrong and I'm a mixed media artist I'm Douglas sigworth glassblower join


our conversations with professional working artists Douglas welcome back to the podcast it's


uh good to be here with you he lied who lied what come on all right well is it


just me or um are you looking a little older since the last time I saw you they're old man older older oh yes we


had a delightful birthday did we not delightful yeah yeah did you uh do you celebrate with a family there we had a


great time we're empty nesters now so having the kids over is especially a


nice treat it's a whole different world when you really find yourself getting super excited every time they come near


that's nice that's nice to hear yeah my uh we I don't know that we did celebrate


with my girls we were out of town we were in Minneapolis we saw a couple of shows squeezed a couple of those closed


to the lake cabin down up there in Minnesota and then went down into the city saw uh Father John Misty and then


back to Santa Fe two full days of driving from there always pretty unpleasant of a dry I've honestly well


gold freaking star you've put in so many goddamn miles the past month and a half it's like yeah crazy I went Minnesota to


St Louis St Louis to Santa Fe Santa Fe back to plaza plaza back in Minnesota


closed it all down came back to Santa Fe so and those are diagonal like we're


used to as artists I I feel like a lot of us are used to these highway miles you know you get on the one Highway you


get on 61 you get on 64 you get on 10. you know you drive across the country


these ways Minnesota to Santa Fe is is a Crimea River but it's it's uh they're


diagonal so you're in these shitty little back roads the entire time and and again driving through methy America


and it's not the most Pleasant so uh anyway I'm road yeah right I'm Road hard


so like we said you had your birthday on Friday mine was Saturday have you ever done the uh the count back will have you


ever thought back to where it all started did no nine months previous to our birthday uh you know I do it to


other people but I've never thought about my own parents having sex no so continue with your nauseating banter


Douglas what do you got for me how would be our parents had a little uh New Year's Eve fun let's just say


on that birthdays my brother-in-law Matt is a you know that's funny I didn't ever put it onto myself but I teased my wife


and we're like your your parents like New Year's Eve that's funny his son has a birthday like one day away too so yeah


okay with all the artist friends we had Kina Crow this week and Thomas spake and Cindy lyric are one of our guests from


last year so we've got ourselves a whole tribe of Libras out there that came out of a nice New Year's Eve romp a


celebration all right good for them good for Ma and PAW I'll have to I'm not gonna bring that up to them that's not


what uh what we talk about all right yeah I'm sure I do remember I was a kid bringing up


the topic to my mom and I said to her did you and Dad have sex before you got


married you asked your parents about sex with your parents you did that I did yeah


no never once I remember my dad on the way to school one time and he was Camp


actually I think it was Camp he's like well do you guys he's like do you know where babies come from and I'm like yeah


totally and so he never brought it up again but if he'd press me on and be like yeah they come from your stomach that's right they're in here that's


right nobody trust them you actually know the answer to that see like how fat that lady is clearly it's in her stomach


like all right well you jumped on my joke here Armstrong so I was asking my mom if because my parents were divorced


at the time and I'm a teenager and I'm feeling a little bit mouthy so Mom did you and Dad have sex before marriage


because we come from this Catholic Family this upbringing and she says no she says I never would have married him


if I had oh man wow like all right Bob all right


for real yeah damn we're getting into Howard


Stern territory but yeah my parents um nah we're not going there that's we're done let's move on okay ladies and


gentlemen moving on what else is on the list well it's been an uh interesting week of shows we had to take a little


week in between because there's just so much on the schedule schedule and I feel


for those folks out in Armonk New York who froze their butts off last weekend I don't apparently they had killer weekend


the sales were I mean that's what I heard yeah that's really but you know uh chili but they I don't know maybe this


is this is people putting the bright foot forward but I did hear good things coming out of our monk the folks that


come out to that show support it and they always run a tight ship so I'm I'm hoping that they got through what we always say shitty weather keeps the tire


kickers away so yeah um they had the serious ones out sure I didn't even look at the weather too much it was pretty


cold oh my God I got a few photos from friends over the weekend literally it was one of those weekends where people


were wearing every single thing they brought in their suitcase you know multiple layers just nightmare that


seems to always happen to me whenever I'm traveling in the south in the fall like you go and you do particular show and it's like it's gonna be warm and


then all of a sudden it's 48 when you wake up in the morning you have to go buy stuff or you're wearing moving blankets oh jeez yeah my worst story of


freezing my ass off was Oklahoma City cheese had to be a decade ago shows can't control the weather this is no


diss on any of the shows but we were freezing it was one of those deals where it was I think 40 for a high and your


body temperature only needs to drop the tiniest amount for you to get like weird you know oh I'm already weird but I


experienced a little hypothermia at that show yikes seriously and then you got naked and rolled around in a sleeping


bag with Renee there you go that's how you're supposed to handle it nauseating nauseating no


um I mean that's supposed to be you know


you get in the sleeping bag and that's how you're supposed to handle but how do you handle that at a show my booth neighbor at the show was Elaine linole


and I'm talking to her and this is like midday and I'm starting to sound drunk and she says Douglas are you drinking no


so she takes me by the hand it says come with me we're going over to the the medic sleeping bag come on Douglas we're


going to the city yeah into the sleeping bag all right but anyway so all day all of the artists are just because it's a


commission show and so we all need to stay open because every sale that gets


made goes through the organization so we were all kind of complaining that day


you know we're contractually obligated to stay open so that was the thing you know like little high school kids will


repeat a line over we're contractually obligated to stay open so she walks me


over to the medic they start asking me questions I should know like how old I am and I'm like wait I know my birthday


but I I literally it startled me I'm like I don't actually know how old I am oh man so the paramedic there said we


need you to shut down and go to the hospital that's that's all it takes that's all it takes yeah and so I close


early at OKC just be like I don't know I just pissed myself I don't know my name my smart ass response to that was I


can't go to the hospital because I am contractually obligated to stay open I announce this in front of an entire room


of people and the director at the time she says well I'm the director of the


show and all of a sudden my heart sank like oh my God I just made an comment in front of the director and she


said I will release you from your contract that's awesome good Lord so you know we


get too hot we get too cold it all messes with us yeah I did the we've all done the get too hot thing I remember


setting up at uh St Louis one year and getting way overheated and this was after that long drive in from Sausalito


and I just started shaking kind of uncontrollably shaking I don't know just felt like a poor homeless guy just


sitting in the air condition of some fast food joint that's trying to regulate scary you got to take care of


yourself listen to your body you know yeah speaking of hot shows I'm thinking of


when you were talking about that memory at St Louis I remember there was a Lakefront Festival that was hotter than


hell and people were going down like flies yeah I did that I just had a


conversation with the director of the lake front shell I have some news to


break shut the up what do you got she said she can't guarantee that they're coming back they're working on


it they're working on the initial planning so we shouldn't get down in the dumps and think they're closed up for sure they are going to try and relaunch


it can you say that she emailed me and she said it in print there she's she's okay with announcing that but I mean is


that really an announcement though they're trying that's good it's not an announcement it it basically they're trying so it's not like it's on for sure


but the wheels are spinning the word was people were wondering if it was going to happen again so well I hope it does I


love love Milwaukee I'm a huge fan of Milwaukee I that town just embraced me


the last time I did that show so um or it just came through Milwaukee I just I could not think more highly of the the


whole Community I just really dug it yeah and so it's a well put on shawl and so we'll hope they do it I think


there'll be a lot of us happy to have that one back on yeah with all the bad news that you're hearing with some of these some of these shows folding up and


and uh canceling and going out you know you hear like um what was it uh the Deep Ellum show closed its doors they're done


for good supposedly and it's just sad and and to to the venues that we lose


and have lost during covid American craft expo at the botanic gardens as


they announced this was their last year at it there's a lot of them that are I can't remember anymore off the top of my


head but yeah that's that's been the word yeah and you wonder if I don't know you wonder if somebody will come along and fill the void but it's a tough


business to get started in especially these days we had this conversation after Ann Arbor well Riley's retiring


she's been wanting to retire but she didn't want the show to fold if there's nobody to step up and take her place okay so I really appreciate shade a lot


of these directors who are trying to pass the Baton and not just letting it fall apart that means a lot and there


are some great young up-and-comer uh show directors that are taking the Baton for some of these and uh you know you're


Sarah omlofs of St Louis I mean some of these shows are just so tightly run that you don't you don't worry about them


take like Gasparilla they've got this thing in place where there's a new director every year but it's part of


their their group you know the director will like the boards or whatever like uh rotating it like the way I understand it


and somebody will come out there and correct me if I'm wrong but they've got a group that runs it and it's like well


this person slides in to the director role after having been in other roles


during the show somebody else just takes the Baton as far as the head of it but it's this well-oiled machine so by the


time you go to the show it you don't necessarily notice that it's uh that it's a new director or that it's a new


it's not really a new director it's all part of the same same group that runs it I see so that's good because then


whoever in charge has taken on many other exactly there are no other tasks


so they kind of get a broader picture that way exactly and they already know the rules and can enforce them and


follow them speaking of Gasper all that wasn't that good news that there got even more award money to offer next year


that's crazy yeah uh yeah a lot of money there uh prize money for Gasparilla and


they opened it back up when they found that out just in case that enticed some more people to apply I think they may have closed by net by the time this airs


but you have to check it out for yourself speaking of applying did you get over your mental block and get some applications out there for next year


yeah finally threw a bunch at them and you know what I did is that I put some new images on there uh and I did not


date one of them and I'm using that image for all of my apps so I have to open up every single last one of them


that's requiring a certain date on that and re-date the piece so yeah just annoying my personal error can't blame


anybody but myself but super annoying that I have to go back and do that yeah all right uh on to the next topic my friend what else you you got on the


docket well I found something interesting over the years you know you and I have pointed out our differences


and what kind of makes this podcast for us so interesting is that we come with


such different experiences sure and one time we kind of brushed on the topic of


the difference between an artist versus a craftsperson or you know ART versus


craft I mean obviously that fits our situation right here big time yeah and I


will say that as a craft artist like I kind of stumble over my voice a little bit when it's like the whole idea of


what's the message behind the work and certainly a craft someone who works in


craft can be an artist well of course yeah where there's a message coming out of it but then a fine crafts person who


works in non-functional craft it does not have to have this message it's really about a celebration of materials


you know it's like quality and design and you know I mean it's there's a lot to it and I have a lot of empathy for


craft artists because I used to be one you know my first body of work uh with my ex was uh was craft and so I had a


little bit of a chip on my shoulder and had I do you feel like you get defensive at all when it comes to that


conversation I have and I haven't always had the right words to say until I I kind of looked into it more to kind of


understand the differences between if artist is all about message I mean your


work isn't about the wood panels you're not taking wood panels and turning them into the most beautiful wood panels you


could make them right it's not about that it's not about the materials in this case it's about the message but


then I can also get I can get defensive to maybe a little bit where I'm like I


definitely am an illustrator I was trained as an illustrator and uh I'm taking that and trying to take it to A


Fine Art Level but yeah try as I might it's it's illustration I'm a Storyteller and I have no problem with that and I


embrace that but it's a large scale coming from almost like the Andrew y kind of school not that talented but


that that kind of school of Storytelling illustration that kind of thing so I get


it it's a complete difference that you and I have and I like that it's the yin and the Yang of the show craft artist versus


um pinky out artist but right it's it's it's it's uh it's interesting well there's an intellectualism behind some


of the work I mean behind artists work where you know you're conveying a message other other artists are you know


like we talked to Lisa Christine today on the show and yeah she has got a


message she's trying to convey she's trying to make a connection with people with communities and sharing that


connection Ella last week talked about creating stories and it makes me think about what I do in


my personal connection to my work for me the minute I dipped in the the


glass furnace and started playing with molten glass I got this sense of Attraction it was


just beyond anything yeah and I just needed to keep playing with it to see what I could make it do how I could make


it turn out I was not a very good craft artist I don't I don't I didn't really like the


craft that I was working on necessarily after it it carried its weight for a while would you say that your mouse


fulfilled with telling stories that oh yeah totally yeah totally like with this body of work when I first started it I


was like you know with craft you have to make it again every day or it goes to hell it was one of those storybook you


remember the story people there they ended up being in all these different craft stores and stuff that was a thing


that I I thought was interesting that applied to craft like you have to make it again every day so there's a joy and


a something in the repetition that happens with a craft artist that you have to do the repetition and the skill


that it takes when I first started this body of work I was like I'm never repeating another thing I'm only doing


this one thing and it drove me a little bit crazy now I'm taking a little bit to a craft artist and I'll say different


things with the same series each time and each one is definitely unique but I'll definitely go dip back on the same


well of the same stories that I've told again and again makes sense it does it does totally make sense and yeah I just


felt like I had the words behind what motivates the work for me and it really


is This Love of the material and just and you know that changes that changes for people you had a shift where you


worked in a certain way and moved into another way so it's kind of cool as artists that whatever gets us jazzed and


motivated to do what we do that's right that's the Special Sauce well here's an interesting segue out of that which is


is I do find sometimes artists will be like they'll be like well shows aren't as good as they used to be and it's like


you look at their work and it's like well you've been making the exact same thing for 25 years and selling it the


exact same shows how do you expect the shows to continue to support a work that doesn't change that doesn't evolve so I


think that's interesting sometimes you have to look at the common denominator it's like well don't get me wrong I've


been some terrible shows I've been to some shows that are are just dogs for me and I it's they're not my market they're


other people's and you just have to look at the common denominator and sometimes that common denominator is U you know


it's like I don't think I suck but I might be not what this show wants so is


that the comment it's like okay well if I showed the same four paintings at the same show every year I'm not gonna sell


them every year you know Douglas you talk about the kind of the Yen and the Yang of you and me doing this the fine


craft versus you know illustration or fine art or whatever you want to call it but then uh you get into a conversation


with Lisa today on this week's show and I was like I almost wanted to be like


okay I retire uh you you just talk to her every week I'm done like she had so


many stories and so many different things and there's so many little things that like that I found fascinating she's


talking about getting chased by guards with guns and and chased out of diamond mines and I these are stories I'm like


okay just tell that story for an hour you know I don't even want to hear anything else it was fascinating and the


little glimmers of things that you got from her just made me want to kind of dig down deep into her story even more


so thanks for this this talk that's coming up I think the longer we do this project it's less about talking


specifically about an artist's career trajectory yeah and it's evolving more


into these Back stories without doing a direct correlation to the work talking


about these experiences make the work have that much more meaning and I get


inspired by the fact that she risks so much to help people and I'm really


excited about this talk and I can't wait for everyone to hear everything she had to say then let's be quiet and let's get


right to it let's do it here's Lee Lisa Christine coming from California not the Midwest finally


this episode of The Independent artist podcast is brought to you by zap the digital application service where


artists and art festivals connect hey well do you remember the old way of doing these applications with red dots


on the slides and self-addressed stamped envelopes do you still have a rotary phone Douglas no I don't remember that


well I just like that they were with us back then when we made the switch from analog to digital it's a huge switch and


now zap is the industry standard and they're always creating features that make our lives easier too so I do like


what zap does and I do like that most of the shows I apply to are ons application


exactly so I personally appreciate what zap is doing and thanks for not making us reinvent the wheel every single week


like we used to have to do Lisa Christine thank you for joining us today on the podcast it's good to see you good


to see you as well first time we met I don't know if you remember it was 20 years ago at the Wells Street Art Festival wow that's amazing isn't it


when I started this podcast project and I was thinking of people I'd like to talk to your work has always left a big


impression on me and so I went to kind of look at your website and look at your


social media and oh my God it was like blown away at the scope of where your career has gone does it even surprise


you how big of a presence you have out there uh that's very gracious of you yeah I I feel more than anything just


grateful you know because this whole Arc of Art and Arc of discovery of ourselves


through ART and discovery of the world through my work in particular it's like


it just feels really good and it is mind-blowing to me sometimes but it it


also feels like that that idea of ripples going out you know sure yeah I


mean when you take the next step and we'll get into the particulars here we're just kind of setting things up but it's like when you take the next step


you don't Envision like where those big ripples are gonna eventually end up and so I'm sure you're just going like one


step at a time and at some point it might turn into like a boulder rolling downhill or a freight train picking up


steam right so how's photography always been the medium that you've worked in


well you know when I was a kid I was always I I did a lot of drawing I've always been a writer I love writing


poetry and I love playing musical instruments and and I love photography


but actually it wasn't at all my intention to to be a photographer it sort of fell in my lap as a career


choice or as a career in general actually went to school to study Fashion Design and Merchandising and I finished


it and I was like oh well that was nice but no that's not going to be so you got


to the end of it and you were like ready to Pivot into something else it was like yeah yeah that's why I left the country


you know and like anyone who leaves a country one brings a camera and I had been


photographing since I was 11 and I had a mentor who taught me how to print seba


Chrome so it's like I knew how to do things it was part of a skill of mine and a joy of mine much like writing or


drawing or music but it just happened to get feet you know so your first


Adventure away from the U.S it wasn't necessarily to go photograph it was to


go have an experience it was that what you're saying yeah well I I'd always had a yearning since I was a little kid to


go out into the world and to be with people that lived a lot closer to the Earth because I think like my childhood


was kind of Rocky and like my mom had these anthropology books I used to look at these people covered with feathers


and mud and from my childlike perspective I think they they sort of resembled the Earth itself and seemed to


me rather unshakable and I did not in any way feel unshakable and I remember


walking out into the middle of the street and determining when I was old enough I would go out there and meet those people and I would find out what


it was they had so I could bring it into my own life so I always think of going out into the world from me as a way to


discover possibility for my life and a way to discover strength for my life and


it never was frightening to me I always felt like it was a form of discovery of


the world but also the inner world you know wow so to to be so like curious and


I have such a knowing at that age like I'm gonna go figure out who these people are to explore that I mean that's that's


pretty profound that's pretty cool so what was it like when you've had that first experience well I was gone for


five years oh this wasn't a short trip it was an immersion it was a total


immersion and it's funny because you know I give a lot of talks and and I've given a few talks to photography groups


and one years ago and I asked instead of being paid gosh would you mind just giving me your you know your feedback


because feedback is vital right right and one of them wrote me you must be a trust fund baby


[Applause] I thought that was so brilliant because indeed that was the antithesis said who


I was but so when I went away traveling for five years what that means is you've got a pack on your back that fits your


camera and you're bopping around at like five bucks a day or two bucks a day and I'd save three thousand dollars over the


course of a few years and off I went into the wild wild world and um oh it


was just so awesome I feel like for me that's a true University you know


um I learned so much from that experience and continue to when I travel so where did you land initially like


what how did it kind of evolve those five years was it lots of different places lots of different Journeys well


initially it was um in Europe I landed the intention was not to remain there but I had relatives and continue to in


in Denmark so I bought around Europe and did all that and ended up in down in


Egypt at one point and maybe I don't know like seven months eight months later and I remember being in Cairo and


seeing like I was 18 you know and seeing these uh brochures on these temples in


Thailand I remember distinctly looking at it and and thinking oh I won't be home for a long time that was that it


was just that just opened it up yeah I just felt like there was so much to see and there was so much to learn but I


remember that distinct thought like it's I won't be home for a long time there's too much but then I ended up in in you


know the Middle East in Asia and then Africa and just kind of all over in South America it just kind of evolved


and it was marvelous your work has evolved into exposing human rights issues and


obviously there was probably a progression from getting into the humanity of it did it start as capturing


scenery or was it right away you just started to bond with other people I've always been a humanistic photographer uh


I I love landscape and I I know many photographers who do that so well I've


never been drawn to photograph it although I I very much enjoy being in it I love connecting with people you know


the minute I'm pressing that exposure in that authentic space it's just such a a


wonderful connection for me but I I've always been into photographing people that's always been an interest to me so


that was the way it started back then always even even when I was 11 my my aunt and uncle who greatly raised me


actually in part they gave me my first camera and I remember I would go out and make photos of you know my family and my


friends but not in the typical kind of grinning sort of way I was always sort


of drawn to someone's Infinity their sense of self their sense of ponderance


about themselves or their lives or a brooding intensity like that was always somehow interesting to me and it felt


more real to me not to displace joy joy always has a wonderful place in the


world but somehow photographically that moved to me that the eyes or the the


composition or whatever is going on in the photo is really drawing something out of what's Happening internally of


the subject is is that right is that what I'm hearing yes yes it was kind of a defining moment where you went from


doing this as artwork capturing people capturing their experience and then you


kind of had that shift towards activism and humanitarianism was there something


that kind of led to that oh yeah for sure I think there was I always feel like art in whatever form we happen to


take it on as artists they're always our teachers so it's really for me in hindsight that I recognized what art was


for me and and as a notion when I think of my body of work it's it's most


certainly about inspiring Unity you know this notion that in our differences we are one the idea that all of us matter


and all of us deserve to be seen and deserve basic human rights you know like


shelter and food and decency and then later


it must have been in the early 2000s I I learned about slavery and it was really


it was really I had been asked to be the exhibitor for the world peace Summit in Vancouver with his Holiness of Dalai


Lama and other Nobel laureates and while I was there exhibiting someone approached me and and they said wow have


you ever thought of documenting slavery and I and I said what are you talking about okay so your body of work that you


had been capturing for years was already being recognized and in this show what


was the name of the show for you said the pope and Dalai Lama it was a world peace Summit well I had just been chosen


to be the exhibitor because being that that was a summit on peacekeeping my work is about diversity and right and


inclusion and so I think that's why they had asked me to be the exhibitor so was


being approached to focus on slavery was that kind of a pivotal shift when things


kind of got ramped up a bed or or went deeper yeah no you know actually well the summit itself was was really on


peace in the world and it just happened to be that one of the participants was from a non-profit that fought slavery


and approached me and that's how the conversation started for me right she


was having somebody tell me that actually did exist and while I had known that some trafficking


was present in our world and that I assumed to be sex trafficking I didn't understand that the numbers were at some


27 million and by the way the new estimates just came out from walk free and ILO and iom that let us know that


today there's more than 50 million people that are enslaved those are the new stats so I think back then when


nobody really knew that slavery happened today you see slavery and trafficking in all the newspapers and and that's


because people believe it but back then the the few foundations who were trying to get funding they couldn't get it


because people didn't even believe it existed so I who also hadn't realized it


when my entire career is based on you know observing others I've been to like 150 countries I'm out in the world


constantly noting that I had missed observing it like I had not seen it I


was so troubled you know I was so troubled like I'm sure I'm sure it was like it was right in front of your face


and then you see it through a different lens I guess pun intended you know you


see it through that lens and suddenly it becomes deeply personal yeah it did and I couldn't sleep and I like within a


week after I left the summit I booked a flight and flew down to Los Angeles and I met with the founders of an


organization called free the slave who I've raised a lot of money for through my work we we met and came up with this


plan and that kind of set me off on a whole new Journey where I would fly around the


world and document in fact many of the countries that I had spent a lot of time in but this time I would see really the


skeletons in the closet I would see it from such a different vantage point so you were going back to places you were


familiar with with a new a new vantage point oh yes and totally different totally different totally different like


different totally different conditions you're saying like different situations yeah well certainly different situations


and instead of me being on my own with my small team I was with abolitionists


that were working undercover I went up to many countries around the world documenting and brothels and illegal


gold mines like hundreds of feet deep in the ground down dark holes where only the slaves would go down and brick Kilns


and all kinds of farming and Agriculture and domestic servitude and all these


different things and of course when I look back on that body of work you know the whole body of work which as you


might imagine it was dangerous to do right it was made in little Windows of like 10 to 20 minutes max that whole


body of work because of the lack of safety for me and also those people that were forced to be enslaved in the


situations yeah that's one of the main questions I was wondering because I mean you're exposing these human rights


violations it's not like it people who are enslaving these folks are just opening up the doors and say hey come on


in and let me show you what we're doing here right yeah they don't do that no red carpet nothing no welcome sign


no yeah yeah so I mean is the the work that you did on exposing slavery is that


it was that whole initiative part of one project or is it something you visit


revisit over time and and are in those situations again yeah that was it initially I think I


think body of work I started making in since 2009 okay and I continued


photographing in the field slavery and I've also do a a great deal


of advocacy around the topic of modern day slavery and you know I speak all


over the world to advocate for awareness building and education and Law changes


and implementation of laws to me that's deeply important and I think that


what photography has or artwork in general has is the ability to transcend language so you have this visual aha


that is very touching to people and it very quickly pulls people out of their heads into the hearts and that's why I'm


like I'm often asked to open plenaries at the UN or the Vatican or other heads of state around the world because it


becomes personal becomes this is our brother and sisters around the world and they're being treated like this so what


can we do because you can't turn your face away once you've seen it how do you form those connections with people who


speak different languages who have you know their culture is quite different from what you're used to how do you how


do you find your way in there into the heart like that you know into their situation do you mean the greater body


of work or modern day slavery I guess I guess that's true you you kind of have two different intentions or different


focuses when you maybe are traveling is that true why they're very different they're very different like the one the


slavery that we were talking about that was kind of like get in get the photos use that work for speaking for shining a


light and that kind of thing but then the greater body of work it sounds like you are becoming part of the community


coming in and meeting with people almost being like a fly on the wall is that is


that what your experience is like um well with the modern day slavery work it's definitively working with


abolitionists on the ground it would be impossible to gain access otherwise because their trust is imbued within the


community and it's very particular in the moments we can go in they're just constantly on their cell phones there's


a lot of safety involved in that and it's very quick agile on the feet 35 millimeter bang it out quick my other


work is more ponderous my other work is about meeting with the heart it's really about learning about people getting to


know them working together with them but only after our permission I never photograph without permission ever in


any situation it's not interesting to me but but that work you know I have a lot


more time so I can use my four by five and medium format it's a totally different feel okay but but both have


their place and I think both have their messages too because no matter how you look at it it's sort


of to me even in the slavery work even if the situation is completely dire and


full of such Hazard and hardship what's interesting to me is the Dignity of that person enduring it so my work is always


has an emblem of that I believe that's important to me and in that way they're very similar and that way they are okay


but I hope that they both yeah that they both have their message because really the message about all of my work is to


to kind of pause and look at one another and remember that we're all in this


thing with a capital l spelled l-i-f-e and we're all in it together all of us matter that goes for the refugee crisis


for any atrocity happening around the world and slavery and human rights issues and violations and just you know


your partner in the room you know your husband your wife all of it it's all relational and it's all about being seen


and being respected you know okay thanks for clarifying that because in your overall body of work there's like two


intentions or two focuses and so when I ask some of these questions I see that


they need to be pointedly different because it's almost like that when you're working with the Abolitionist


that is it's like journalism in a way I mean you're using you're using your art


but it's a way to speak out and to reveal what's happening yes and then the


other it almost sounds like there's not like the adrenaline rush I mean no it's


very different you don't have to be ready to you know run your ass off when someone's chasing


you with a gun oh my God that sounds that sounds I've been for the most part extremely


fortunate but but there are just situations that are much more dangerous and it's a different it's like yeah


definite adrenaline it's it's a different animal yeah the Abolitionist were you saying are they like undercover


and the thing that they're doing on the phones is like saying hey we've got this narrow window of time where nobody's


looking at us we can come in and do what we need to do we can expose this is that what's happening yeah more or less


really the the people that are working in the anti-slavery movement in each community in each particular type of


slavery within a country will be different people and they're all intimate within their own Community okay and they for the most part do work


undercover so that the people that are enslaved are entrusting of that


individual and so when they're making calls they're all working together they're trying to find Windows when the


traffickers are are removed or the managers are removed and I can quickly go in and make these images and get out


so so there's a lot of a lot of communication that's going on a lot there's you know people on the


perimeters watching what's happening at all times and then somebody right beside me shadowing me because when we have to


go we have to go in a nanosecond we can't hang out in a way I feel quite ignorant to the whole topic I didn't


know that the problem was as big or pervasive or the details like you're exposing here so is slavery outlawed and


illegal all around the world or is slavery allowed in some countries well


that's a great question it's actually illegal in every country but it exists in every country and every country every


country pretty much it exists and in some countries it's it's it's certainly more accepted but it's illegal in all of


them yeah and I think the most challenging thing about slavery is that it's it's hidden in plain sight right


sure so even in the United States it could be you know your server at a restaurant it could be a guy in a gas


station right in a little kiosk and you wouldn't know you would just assume the person before you is getting paid or


receiving the tips you're giving them or can go home at night but many of them have you know they don't have their


passport they're not in control of their lives at all like at all they're forced to work just constantly yeah I mean we


see flyers and rest stops we're going by but and that's probably so removed that


is progress that's progress that's huge progress I mean the idea that there's Flyers that when you go into the airport


there's information the idea that a U.N General Assembly they dedicated entire week to discussing human trafficking


these days these are all huge in my mind accomplishments that clearly didn't exist 10 years ago so I feel like


there's just been a lot of progress even though the statistical numbers get larger but that's of course largely


because it's hard to get stats on things that are hidden and so pervasive that we


don't have our grip on yet you know so as we further ourselves down the road of really understanding and really being


able to gain statistics I think they're going to get larger before they get smaller but alongside that you have a


lot more people that are advocating for change you know so I think that's important right once we see the scope


and the breadth of the problem it's hard to look away it's hard to say oh I can't do anything about it I mean when you


were first presented with the idea that hey how would you like to help cover or


expose what's going on with slavery in the world was there a feeling of can I really make


a difference can my images make a difference did you have anything like that I knew that they would make a


difference I didn't feel like that I chose to do that body of work I feel like I was really called to do it like I


couldn't sleep I had to do something I I felt utterly compelled that I knew I had


to go do it it was really like one of those Strange Life moments where you just know you have to take that step and


isn't it Joseph Campbell that says if you take one step toward the gods the gods take 10 toward you I mean I I feel


like I've learned so much from this experience and it's not been easy it's been enormously challenging and


frightening but I also know that it makes a difference and I know that each


of us every one of us can do something in our own skill house Talent house


giving house to help a situation that matters to us to help to help another right yeah I mean that's pretty profound


that the second you were exposed to this you were able to open up to that and to


be like this is my calling this is something I have to do whether or not anybody ever does anything different


because of my work or my you know me taking photographs of the situation it I


have to do it and then it did have such a profound effect it's huge it's huge what people are seeing what was the


first situation that you were involved in where you were brought on site to expose what was going on my first


physical introduction to photographing slavery was in India in the brick homes


and okay they're already like going to the Giza Pyramids I just remember


feeling like I had entered Dante's Inferno you know it was like it was so hot it was like 130 degrees and you'd


see these men women and children cloaked in a blanket of smoke like stacking bricks on their heads 18 at a time each


brick weighs three four pounds it it was incredible yeah and heartbreaking you'd see these Elders in there people that


were stooped over so skinny just bones with powder of brick dust on them and


stacking bricks oh I remember at one point I started to cry I I started to


have a tear go down my face and the Abolitionist who was next to me just


shook me abruptly and said Lisa you cannot do that you cannot do that here


there is no room for that it's not safe for you and it's not safe for them and in that instant I realized that


I wasn't here to do that and that I was here to give what I could to bring a


remedy to the situation and that I had to trust people on the ground like people that do the real work like these


abolitionists that work undercover that risk their lives every day not the few days that I'm doing it at a time and to


trust that they would be able to help these people it was very moving I mean on some occasions when we were working


it was so hot that the people the abolitionists and translators that I was with were vomiting and fainting because


of the severity of the Heat and my camera became too hot to even touch it stopped working it you couldn't touch it


was so hot and I'd have to jog back to the Cruiser have the the driver turn the


ignition on and pass the camera beneath the the air conditioning to revive it


back to functioning and I'm sitting there thinking this box this black box this camera is getting more good welfare


attention than these people ever will that was like a real strange thought to have and I'd run back out there and do


more work and yeah they're moving bricks around their their physical laboring and that heat yeah and just the camera doing


nothing but being held in that heat was shutting down yeah wow yeah that was


very impressive memory yeah well shifting over to working in your broader


body of work can you tell us about what it's like immersing yourself into a


culture and kind of becoming part of the group and getting the trust and sharing


back and forth and to be able to photograph that what is that experience like or are there any memorable


experiences from that well I always say that a stranger is a friend you just haven't met yet when I go out into the


world I'm so curious about people I'm just curious about like when I hear a different language it's like I just love


it yeah yeah and and I had learned at a young age when I was away when I well not too young going 18 and spending all


that time that you don't need language to be with people you don't need language to live with them to help to


enjoy to laugh you don't and I work 100 of the time with translators and that's a big process on


its own however that's nowadays and I guess my point is that even with our


differences that we have that it's so easy to have this knee-jerk reaction of being afraid of someone because of that


difference as opposed to being curious or having a sense of wonder about them you know and I guess that's how I see


people I I have this strange feeling when I leave the country and I go elsewhere into these areas it's kind of


this visceral thing for me but I I sort of dump my nationality I dump my female


male I just kind of show up with with a presence okay and I don't mean that Nana grandiose way that I mean that in a


really simple way right because what I'm interested is is in meeting somebody in that same state once you're able to sort


of get into that authentic sense of presence with someone I feel that's when


the magic happens you know and and that that is so wondrous to me you know like I I


spend time at the feet of Elders around the world I have had the opportunity of documenting a group of centenarians that


were all you know over 100 years old one woman 116. and I have this very keen


memory I was in Sardinia with Dr Elizabeth Lindsay and another friend Jay


Williams and I was documenting these centenarians and I would always kneel at their feet


and put my hands on their lap and at one point this this woman 116 like can you


imagine no actually sorry I made that mistake she's 110. that was someone else


110. she had these young aunties were like well like they're in their 80s or


something they were young and and she started as speaking to me just just


saying all this stuff in Sardinia and let alone Italian so I had no idea what she was saying but I did and the aunties


were saying oh no no she's just babbling she doesn't understand you and my


translator explained to me the situation and and I and I looked at the aunties and I said no I understand everything


she's saying because I knew she was just blessing me I knew she was just telling me all the good stuff that I


needed to know about my life and that sums it up you know like what is it that we need to do and when I would finish


working with all these centenarians I'd ask them what gift would you give the world with all the experience that


you've had okay invariably the answer was always the same and it was always help one another you know just help one


another it's the most simple thing if your neighbor needs milk you give them milk I I I Marvel at that because


it's not complicated yeah well so do you ever have when you come


in to cultures that maybe don't even know because there's not technology life


beyond what they physically see right there I'm not saying you're a scary person but it is


of like who is this person what is she here I mean do you have to break through


that kind of initial barrier with them in some cases you know I don't really have that


experience and I have to say I imagine most people would but I've just been doing this so long that I don't ever


feel that way that's what I mean about dropping things away viscerally I I mean obviously I


don't feel like I'm their neighbor and then when I walk in I don't look dissimilar but I feel always a welcoming


presence from people and I and I like to think that who we are what we bring to


the table when we interact with one another you know whatever Grace we provide or Bruce Miss whatever it is


it's like life is a mirror and I think that it's it's sort of like befriending someone and coming arriving with an open


heart and arriving with authentic honesty like sure arriving with the truth about what you're doing you know


that matters right that makes sense to me I just uh I recorded yesterday with


Ella Richards and Ella came to the U.S from Soviet Union as a young girl and


the thing that is really throughout her talk she made it very clear that being


an immigrant and not knowing the language that you could get a sense


from people's eyes from their gestures from their everything about their body


language that made her feel am I unsafe am I welcomed am I meeting


with somebody who has genuine love and compassion in their heart for me or someone who wants to do me harm so I'm


sure that all of that non-verbal is going on when you're making the introductions and when you're you're


being welcomed into different communities and different cultures yeah and I think that you know you learn to


read people well when you're put in situations where you're sort of Landing


in places very dissimilar where there is not necessarily a shared language or you're the you're the minority the one


it's it's good I think it's good and I have had um experiences that were of


harsher nature one being in Haiti in a a very dangerous slum called City Soleil I


had met up with these gang members there through this fellow I was working with it was my fixer there and yeah they were


very suspicious of me and that took time to undo and that was a very scary


situation for me I remember being wondering if I'd get out of there actually but the barrier got broken you know and the


bridge was built that's my thing you know Bill Bridges cool and I can only imagine being an


immigrant in this country and what that must have been like for Ella it's something that unless you're in her


shoes you wouldn't be able to really understand you know yeah and I think it is one of the downfalls we have a lot of


privileges in this country and I think that to not be aware of that


there are a lot of people here in the U.S who feel like we live in the greatest country in the world and


they're very arrogant about it and they're very selfish about it and


they're very hateful about it in regards to having possession and ownership over


what is theirs and what isn't somebody else's and I think that's the big lesson that


we need to learn as a culture of people born and raised in the United States to


open our eyes to what is out there on the greater world yeah I actually think


um as a bit of compassionate insight for the United States one of the issues is


that the United States is such a large country it's it's huge so many people never moved I mean they don't move out


of their state let alone their country and people tend to be insular by nature


in a way and they're not interested in things that don't directly affect them so we don't get like the best


international news we never know what's going on and if if people do get it they don't particularly resonate with it or


care I feel like unless it's judgmental and I I feel that's a big downfall for


us and at the same time I can understand how it would happen I mean when you're in Europe you can skip over to a country


in a few hours it's not like entire countries you would fit in one of our little States right so it's so


interesting having a breadth of awareness beyond our own immediacy is


such a misfortune not to exercise not to be aware of you know because then we


develop this fear of others and fear of difference and oh that's such a loss right okay what I got from you earlier


you say that when you take your photographs or when you are in a


community in a culture and taking photos the key thing is permission right and


so you have presented a body of work that is beautiful it shows the world it


exposes human indecencies and pain it sounds to me


like you have a definite line as to what is showing appreciation and


where it could be exploitive can you talk a little bit about that fine line


when working that way yeah you know actually it's I'm part of


a the king of Dubai has this organization called Dubai cares and one of the things they're doing within it is


delegating this idea of dignified storytelling so I've been on several of their panels building what that is


because the thing about going into a situation especially like where people are enslaved or where people are in


Refugee crisis where they're definitely not in a power position you know right and I think that one of the key elements


to me is permission it's permission you don't just go up and take something and


I don't even in terms of creating photographs I don't use the word take I always say make but take something from


somebody a thing or a photograph that that energy it values the word tape


right I think when when one goes out in the world one has to figure out what is it that they're trying to say and


secondly are they trying to show a form of Horror in which this human being that


could be you actually is experiencing this horror do they want to be the poster child of that horror or are you


gonna frame it in a way that they're the empowered person in it I think all of that really matters I think the language


around photography matters we talk we say words like take we say words like shoot I'm gonna go shooting today all of


that I just find it so intriguing that that photography has that language which I do not use but I have ever thought of


it like that that is oh yeah it's it's always it's kind of akin to hunting in


terms of language can I say it like hunting yeah right those distinctions matter but I think


permission and how one is choosing to share someone's story visual story


matters I think it matters yeah this is a topic that is hard to


talk about and I've spoken with other artists not on the podcast about


the idea that we've gotten to a place in society right


now where we really value representation and we we value hearing people's


experiences but the Catch-22 with that is it almost seems like you have to be


from that particular group to be able to share that story The criticism is you


don't have the the right to tell that story and I just was curious how what you feel about that or how what your


take on that topic would be you know my take on all of this


um but especially what you're saying now I think it matters and I do think that it's a point of view and I believe that


life is absolutely completely and wholeheartedly perception and how we perceive things and I will even dare say


choose to perceive things is is kind of how the outcome is obviously the the


people that I photograph largely are not people that look like me they are not people that are in the economic space


that I'm in and I'm aware of that I'm aware of that does it prevent me from


what I believe to be a creator of something ultimately


very valuable not not just to myself or to people who collect my work or museums


that how's my work or talks I give around the world whatever that is but I believe from my perception


that it allows I'll say for the most part cultures that are daily disappearing to be celebrated to have


been documented to it's a reminder to me it's like you have a sense of


intelligence and then you have sort of this indigenous wisdom and they both are


important and and if I as as a honest living of my life then I when I say


living I don't mean in terms of waging but someone who is living my life find Value in that that I know will touch


people's hearts that will inspire them to be stirred inside to to perhaps


change their attitude change their mind about another race that might Inspire them to contribute to


something beyond their own intimate life to help another person then I feel very


proud of that and I I I think too that it's important to give back and it's all


such a fine balance right but it all matters I think it all matters thank you


for putting voice to that I think it's a beautiful way to explain that it's


important work it's valuable work and the intention is everything I think the


intention is is key okay on a yearly basis how many different kinds of trips


for source of inspiration for your work do you take is it pretty regular or does


it kind of flow it flows and sometimes there's a lot going on and sometimes there isn't


because I'm either flying somewhere to create images or I am flying somewhere for meetings or


I am flying somewhere to speak I just it just depends but I tend to be out and


about pretty frequently how does your kind of overall career breakdown between


like the activism piece the speaking piece the generating new images like


because it almost seems like you have several different careers going on under the kind of the the bigger umbrella I


kind of do the photography is that's my life right that's my sustenance that's how I


survive is by collectors really and I've been very fortunate with that I I always


go out and make my work and I come back and I share it and that's been the same for the slavery except the slavery work


has gained feet in these other venues if you will like definitely activism and


things like that it is like I mean I always laugh because I am so bloody busy all the time


I've had already this morning a call with London a call with Australia and


Switzerland before we had this podcast but I love it all and I feel like I can't not love it we have three children


one in college two in high school and so my trips are frequent but they're not


long because I want to be I have to be I want to be present for them you know for sure yeah yeah that's that's a that's a


struggle you know the the career and and home life I mean that's the balance you


can't be saving the world and then your home life suffers so you have to put in


the time and in all those places yes and the way to save the world is to save yourself and to save your family and to


be in other words to be to be present to be truly you know right present if


you're off at one of these experiences where you need to be speaking on big


issues if on the inside you're feeling bad about what's not being taken care of at home then you can't help the world


yeah yeah because that home is suffering so it sounds like a balancing act for


sure yeah for sure so tell me when you are in those moments


where you are meeting new people and generating new work


how do you create the image I'm sure that the relationship comes first right


the interaction with people getting to know them before the camera comes out is


that true yes I I again I I never work without permission and it's pretty


involved I mean I go and I I sit with the community it's it's involved project


and then we sort of work in this harmony harmonistic way to create the work


together um I don't like to go too into that forgive me because I feel like that


takes away from what the work was really about I don't know how to explain that but no I understand I like the work to


sort of stand on its own without being explained if that doesn't make sense without the back story around how it's


yeah and it's a personal it's such a deeply personal interaction that's happening when you look at one of the


subjects and they're looking at you however the image is set up that you can feel what is being communicated


that's the magic and yeah it transcends interpreters it transcends language it


transcends all of that yes perfect words I totally I totally get that like I've


been following your Instagram and there's an image that really struck me and it's the man praying in the cavern


and the vastness of that Cavern he's this small


person he's a small figure in the greater shot but his presence fills that


Cavern it's like a deep sense of reverence a sense of spiritual strength


I mean there's just so much going on there and all of your images evoke that it evokes a conversation and that's what


I've always loved about your work yeah I I I I felt very grateful to have been


given the opportunity and permission to work there and I did so very quietly and that light that was coming through you


know the monks they Ponder the light it's called that image is called contemplation of light and they they literally contemplate the


light and you know I look at all these images really like they're teachers right to me


for my life and um that I that that Serenity and his


aloneness but but for me not loneliness it's really about connecting with with oneself and Source


you know I yeah I I there's a little teeny green leaf on that rock actually at the base of his


his posture his sitting position and it's so I didn't even see that for like


I printed it a few times and hadn't even seen it so funny but really I love that there's this little green leaf there


just sitting there on the Rock but I love that image yeah it's one of those


surprises that's the other thing with artwork we love when there's a surprise right really totally


as you've said you don't do many of the outdoor shows anymore but I mean I've


seen you a couple of times this year you have this Gallery in Sonoma you have


exhibitions why do you still do the fine art shows the outdoor art shows are they


still important to you are they still important part of your business model well you know it's funny I stopped doing


shows and then I did like two a year and then I was just doing all my other stuff but then I started thinking about when I


do an exhibition as an example they're great and they're they're they're really neat and I feel very fortunate to have


them inaugurated by special people and to have a lot of the public gum however when I think about museums it's sort of


this Niche crowd in a way you know not everybody goes to a museum and when


you're at a show anyone could come anyone and everyone that happens to be walking down that streets you know a few


hundred thousand people that's a lot of impact and my mission being to inspire


Unity like you have to come hang out my booth sometime but it's really fun to watch people because you could see them


you could see their minds ticking you could just see it happening and I guess


I feel like it's it's it's part of my mission and what I love to do


they are tiring I love doing it but you know they're they're rather long hours and yeah yeah but I think it they're


worthy and I've done a few more this year and I don't know that I'll be able


to continue with that because I do get busy but they do feel special they do feel like a part of what needs to be


done I guess is there a sense is your booth like you said come hang out on


your booth is there constant conversations happening about this image or what happened here or just feedback


the constant there's constant constant I like watching people be inspired as


they are with all of us artists yeah it's a wonderful thing and I I guess I


just feel like it's a great place to be I mean that's in large part how my career started many years ago outside of


being at a you know an agency when I was very young and there's been a lot of gifts on the way and the art shows the


the whole Community although I don't have an opportunity to see so many people anymore and I'm probably a little


out of the sink but when I fly in for a show and I and I get to hang with everybody I I feel like artists are so


warm everybody's so helpful with one another and there's a real nice tribe I


think and respect for one another's crafts and I think for for just really


living the life of an artist I just have always found that to be very special at art shows you know well I I think that


your work has such a deep personal connection you have in immersed yourself into these


issues and the work isn't just taking this talk has been so enlightening to me


about what makes you tick about where your intention is with your work and I'm


just so inspired by that that call to action that activism that


humanitarianism that getting down into the trenches that you do there's just so


many parts of your personality that are just being realized through this career that you've created


yeah I feel like uh it's been a real sense of learning for me and the thing I


love most about my career my passion and my life is is that I'm always in this


constant state of learning you know people aren't my subjects that I photograph they're my mentors I have


learned how to live through them I never would take that for granted you know Lisa


thank you so much for talking to me today this has been a lot of fun and I appreciate it so much back kitchen I'm


glad we finally made it happen I kept pinging you you said keep coming


with me just keep hanging too much going on but I'll get there well this has been a pleasure and I


learned a lot from you thank you for sharing your story and have a good rest your day that's great thank you you too


have a lovely day and I'll talk to you soon bye-bye well great talk with Lisa


Christine as always Douglas I thoroughly enjoyed this one and I found her to be inspiring and and interesting to kind of


Broach some of this subjects of of uh you know you guys kind of even touched on appropriation and and I've talked to


other artists about that as well and it's an interesting kind of topic to bring into the to the dialogue it's a


tricky subject and it's one that gets us a little nervous and I'm glad that she had a real conversation about where the


line is for her and she didn't feel like I was accusing or or having no having a


turn on her I wanted to know where that where that all fits in in the conversation sure where's the line and


um it's not like she's ever gonna shy away from it because I don't think she's ever shied away from anything that's one of the things I learned so interesting


talk and and lots of different topics that we dug down into well Douglas we've got a couple of big you're working on


some commission work and a big install for your New Jersey clients and and uh well you know we had one that kind of


snuck in ahead of it we had to put it on pause for a bit because this New Jersey thing they have to meet with committees


and everyone has to have a vote and things have to be determined so there was a good period of time where I kind


of got tabled okay yeah so you're working with a committee did you do the committee thing that is my favorite


trick when you know you're dealing with a committee and just I know your trick that's pretty funny question for the committee is is have


three ideas that are possibilities but make sure you include a clinker so that's something


make sure you give those people that that run their mouths in meetings because I I came from a corporate world


very briefly yeah but if you if you have something that they can make them feel good so you drop a real big deuce right


there in the rest of your offers you have these three great offers and then one terrible one and then they're like oh well that's a wonderful uh so what if


they pick the deuce offer that's what I'm wondering I'm perfectly capable of producing a deuce


so while they were making their decisions we we drove off we finished and drove off to Madison and it's for a


collector and we did this really cool 20-foot wall for them and it's this


custom house for their Sailors and every little floor every little component was


so specially designed it just blew my mind this place awesome yeah I saw some


uh clips of that that that house is a beautiful install really really crazy I've got one I'm working on myself I you


know I got this studio to work large and I've got this 18 foot it's basically it's a wall sized mural it's 18 feet by


night let's say six eight nine I can't do math uh 18 feet by nine nineteen and


I always have to slow down 18 feet holy balls that's huge yeah and it's a


triptych so six feet by nine feet panels so I can put all three together if I


want to work on it all together I but I close the door off to my studio so I have to exit through the other door so


okay at least have a back door I can go out so wow yeah it's a monster so I will


be doing that this month and you know how I like to work large I'm putting that to the test all right that's gonna


be installed before Thanksgiving so I've definitely been cranking on that so ready to go it's all mapped out and


um no pun intended ready to go can't wait to see it all right sir well uh well I think we should keep this kind of


quick we decided out of the blue there you go we're gonna launch a weekend sale so we're putting stuff in our front yard


and inviting people to come so no not going on all right yeah you guys have done those before those are always


pretty successful I feel like if people walk in the door then they're gonna buy something at those shows for sure yeah


I'm actually doing my first Open studio video myself tomorrow night there is a


First Fridays event down here at the Lena Street Lofts where I I have my studio here in Santa Fe and my my little


closet where I'm I'm set up here with my podcast they're not allowed in to see that that's so weird look my kids think


it's super creepy what does he do in there yeah my uh my youngest wanted to draw she was


trying to do some pen and ink stuff and got frustrated at school because they're all all the nibs of course are all blown out at the art class so okay she was in


here doing some drawing so anyway I'm excited about doing that getting some work on the walls and and sweeping the


floors up and opening the doors seeing what happens yeah this first time you're having the public in your studio since


you started up in there yep absolutely it'll be interesting to see anybody anybody comes by all right well good


luck with that and uh catch you next week no rain no rain at your home so you can just have a great weekend and we'll


see you next time all right bye everyone this podcast is brought to you by the


National Association of Independent Artists the website is also sponsored by


zapplication that's and while you're at it check out Will's website at

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