One Step Towards the Gods/ Lisa Kristine

Working Artists! You are not alone!! Lisa Kristine https://lisakristine.com/ celebrates the humanity within us all that transcends language and culture through her fine art photography.  When approached to document modern-day slavery, she was troubled by what was hidden in plain sight. In this talk, she shares her harrowing experiences to do the work she felt called to do. Her powerful work encourages the viewer not only to form a connection from the head but rather from the heart.

Visual artists Douglas Sigwarth https://www.sigwarthglass.com/ and Will Armstrong http://www.willarmstrongart.com/, co-host and talk about topics affecting working artists. Each episode is a deep dive into a conversation with a guest artist who shares their unique experiences as a professional independent artist.  This week's preamble topic includes a discussion about the differences between fine art and fine craft.

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Transcript

0:00

[Music] foreign

0:12

artist podcast sponsored by the National Association of Independent Artists also

0:18

sponsored by zapplication I'm will Armstrong and I'm a mixed media artist I'm Douglas sigworth glassblower join

0:25

our conversations with professional working artists Douglas welcome back to the podcast it's

0:33

uh good to be here with you he lied who lied what come on all right well is it

0:40

just me or um are you looking a little older since the last time I saw you they're old man older older oh yes we

0:48

had a delightful birthday did we not delightful yeah yeah did you uh do you celebrate with a family there we had a

0:54

great time we're empty nesters now so having the kids over is especially a

1:00

nice treat it's a whole different world when you really find yourself getting super excited every time they come near

1:06

that's nice that's nice to hear yeah my uh we I don't know that we did celebrate

1:12

with my girls we were out of town we were in Minneapolis we saw a couple of shows squeezed a couple of those closed

1:18

to the lake cabin down up there in Minnesota and then went down into the city saw uh Father John Misty and then

1:25

back to Santa Fe two full days of driving from there always pretty unpleasant of a dry I've honestly well

1:32

gold freaking star you've put in so many goddamn miles the past month and a half it's like yeah crazy I went Minnesota to

1:40

St Louis St Louis to Santa Fe Santa Fe back to plaza plaza back in Minnesota

1:46

closed it all down came back to Santa Fe so and those are diagonal like we're

1:51

used to as artists I I feel like a lot of us are used to these highway miles you know you get on the one Highway you

1:57

get on 61 you get on 64 you get on 10. you know you drive across the country

2:03

these ways Minnesota to Santa Fe is is a Crimea River but it's it's uh they're

2:09

diagonal so you're in these shitty little back roads the entire time and and again driving through methy America

2:15

and it's not the most Pleasant so uh anyway I'm road yeah right I'm Road hard

2:21

so like we said you had your birthday on Friday mine was Saturday have you ever done the uh the count back will have you

2:28

ever thought back to where it all started did no nine months previous to our birthday uh you know I do it to

2:35

other people but I've never thought about my own parents having sex no so continue with your nauseating banter

2:41

Douglas what do you got for me how would be our parents had a little uh New Year's Eve fun let's just say

2:51

on that birthdays my brother-in-law Matt is a you know that's funny I didn't ever put it onto myself but I teased my wife

2:57

and we're like your your parents like New Year's Eve that's funny his son has a birthday like one day away too so yeah

3:04

okay with all the artist friends we had Kina Crow this week and Thomas spake and Cindy lyric are one of our guests from

3:10

last year so we've got ourselves a whole tribe of Libras out there that came out of a nice New Year's Eve romp a

3:18

celebration all right good for them good for Ma and PAW I'll have to I'm not gonna bring that up to them that's not

3:23

what uh what we talk about all right yeah I'm sure I do remember I was a kid bringing up

3:31

the topic to my mom and I said to her did you and Dad have sex before you got

3:37

married you asked your parents about sex with your parents you did that I did yeah

3:42

no never once I remember my dad on the way to school one time and he was Camp

3:48

actually I think it was Camp he's like well do you guys he's like do you know where babies come from and I'm like yeah

3:53

totally and so he never brought it up again but if he'd press me on and be like yeah they come from your stomach that's right they're in here that's

4:00

right nobody trust them you actually know the answer to that see like how fat that lady is clearly it's in her stomach

4:07

like all right well you jumped on my joke here Armstrong so I was asking my mom if because my parents were divorced

4:13

at the time and I'm a teenager and I'm feeling a little bit mouthy so Mom did you and Dad have sex before marriage

4:19

because we come from this Catholic Family this upbringing and she says no she says I never would have married him

4:24

if I had oh man wow like all right Bob all right

4:31

for real yeah damn we're getting into Howard

4:36

Stern territory but yeah my parents um nah we're not going there that's we're done let's move on okay ladies and

4:43

gentlemen moving on what else is on the list well it's been an uh interesting week of shows we had to take a little

4:48

week in between because there's just so much on the schedule schedule and I feel

4:54

for those folks out in Armonk New York who froze their butts off last weekend I don't apparently they had killer weekend

5:00

the sales were I mean that's what I heard yeah that's really but you know uh chili but they I don't know maybe this

5:05

is this is people putting the bright foot forward but I did hear good things coming out of our monk the folks that

5:10

come out to that show support it and they always run a tight ship so I'm I'm hoping that they got through what we always say shitty weather keeps the tire

5:17

kickers away so yeah um they had the serious ones out sure I didn't even look at the weather too much it was pretty

5:22

cold oh my God I got a few photos from friends over the weekend literally it was one of those weekends where people

5:28

were wearing every single thing they brought in their suitcase you know multiple layers just nightmare that

5:34

seems to always happen to me whenever I'm traveling in the south in the fall like you go and you do particular show and it's like it's gonna be warm and

5:39

then all of a sudden it's 48 when you wake up in the morning you have to go buy stuff or you're wearing moving blankets oh jeez yeah my worst story of

5:46

freezing my ass off was Oklahoma City cheese had to be a decade ago shows can't control the weather this is no

5:52

diss on any of the shows but we were freezing it was one of those deals where it was I think 40 for a high and your

6:01

body temperature only needs to drop the tiniest amount for you to get like weird you know oh I'm already weird but I

6:07

experienced a little hypothermia at that show yikes seriously and then you got naked and rolled around in a sleeping

6:13

bag with Renee there you go that's how you're supposed to handle it nauseating nauseating no

6:20

um I mean that's supposed to be you know

6:27

you get in the sleeping bag and that's how you're supposed to handle but how do you handle that at a show my booth neighbor at the show was Elaine linole

6:35

and I'm talking to her and this is like midday and I'm starting to sound drunk and she says Douglas are you drinking no

6:44

so she takes me by the hand it says come with me we're going over to the the medic sleeping bag come on Douglas we're

6:50

going to the city yeah into the sleeping bag all right but anyway so all day all of the artists are just because it's a

6:57

commission show and so we all need to stay open because every sale that gets

7:02

made goes through the organization so we were all kind of complaining that day

7:07

you know we're contractually obligated to stay open so that was the thing you know like little high school kids will

7:12

repeat a line over we're contractually obligated to stay open so she walks me

7:18

over to the medic they start asking me questions I should know like how old I am and I'm like wait I know my birthday

7:25

but I I literally it startled me I'm like I don't actually know how old I am oh man so the paramedic there said we

7:33

need you to shut down and go to the hospital that's that's all it takes that's all it takes yeah and so I close

7:40

early at OKC just be like I don't know I just pissed myself I don't know my name my smart ass response to that was I

7:47

can't go to the hospital because I am contractually obligated to stay open I announce this in front of an entire room

7:54

of people and the director at the time she says well I'm the director of the

8:00

show and all of a sudden my heart sank like oh my God I just made an comment in front of the director and she

8:06

said I will release you from your contract that's awesome good Lord so you know we

8:14

get too hot we get too cold it all messes with us yeah I did the we've all done the get too hot thing I remember

8:20

setting up at uh St Louis one year and getting way overheated and this was after that long drive in from Sausalito

8:28

and I just started shaking kind of uncontrollably shaking I don't know just felt like a poor homeless guy just

8:34

sitting in the air condition of some fast food joint that's trying to regulate scary you got to take care of

8:39

yourself listen to your body you know yeah speaking of hot shows I'm thinking of

8:45

when you were talking about that memory at St Louis I remember there was a Lakefront Festival that was hotter than

8:51

hell and people were going down like flies yeah I did that I just had a

8:57

conversation with the director of the lake front shell I have some news to

9:02

break shut the up what do you got she said she can't guarantee that they're coming back they're working on

9:08

it they're working on the initial planning so we shouldn't get down in the dumps and think they're closed up for sure they are going to try and relaunch

9:13

it can you say that she emailed me and she said it in print there she's she's okay with announcing that but I mean is

9:20

that really an announcement though they're trying that's good it's not an announcement it it basically they're trying so it's not like it's on for sure

9:27

but the wheels are spinning the word was people were wondering if it was going to happen again so well I hope it does I

9:35

love love Milwaukee I'm a huge fan of Milwaukee I that town just embraced me

9:41

the last time I did that show so um or it just came through Milwaukee I just I could not think more highly of the the

9:47

whole Community I just really dug it yeah and so it's a well put on shawl and so we'll hope they do it I think

9:53

there'll be a lot of us happy to have that one back on yeah with all the bad news that you're hearing with some of these some of these shows folding up and

10:00

and uh canceling and going out you know you hear like um what was it uh the Deep Ellum show closed its doors they're done

10:07

for good supposedly and it's just sad and and to to the venues that we lose

10:13

and have lost during covid American craft expo at the botanic gardens as

10:18

they announced this was their last year at it there's a lot of them that are I can't remember anymore off the top of my

10:23

head but yeah that's that's been the word yeah and you wonder if I don't know you wonder if somebody will come along and fill the void but it's a tough

10:30

business to get started in especially these days we had this conversation after Ann Arbor well Riley's retiring

10:36

she's been wanting to retire but she didn't want the show to fold if there's nobody to step up and take her place okay so I really appreciate shade a lot

10:43

of these directors who are trying to pass the Baton and not just letting it fall apart that means a lot and there

10:48

are some great young up-and-comer uh show directors that are taking the Baton for some of these and uh you know you're

10:55

Sarah omlofs of St Louis I mean some of these shows are just so tightly run that you don't you don't worry about them

11:01

take like Gasparilla they've got this thing in place where there's a new director every year but it's part of

11:07

their their group you know the director will like the boards or whatever like uh rotating it like the way I understand it

11:14

and somebody will come out there and correct me if I'm wrong but they've got a group that runs it and it's like well

11:20

this person slides in to the director role after having been in other roles

11:25

during the show somebody else just takes the Baton as far as the head of it but it's this well-oiled machine so by the

11:31

time you go to the show it you don't necessarily notice that it's uh that it's a new director or that it's a new

11:36

it's not really a new director it's all part of the same same group that runs it I see so that's good because then

11:42

whoever in charge has taken on many other exactly there are no other tasks

11:47

so they kind of get a broader picture that way exactly and they already know the rules and can enforce them and

11:52

follow them speaking of Gasper all that wasn't that good news that there got even more award money to offer next year

11:58

that's crazy yeah uh yeah a lot of money there uh prize money for Gasparilla and

12:04

they opened it back up when they found that out just in case that enticed some more people to apply I think they may have closed by net by the time this airs

12:10

but you have to check it out for yourself speaking of applying did you get over your mental block and get some applications out there for next year

12:16

yeah finally threw a bunch at them and you know what I did is that I put some new images on there uh and I did not

12:23

date one of them and I'm using that image for all of my apps so I have to open up every single last one of them

12:29

that's requiring a certain date on that and re-date the piece so yeah just annoying my personal error can't blame

12:36

anybody but myself but super annoying that I have to go back and do that yeah all right uh on to the next topic my friend what else you you got on the

12:42

docket well I found something interesting over the years you know you and I have pointed out our differences

12:49

and what kind of makes this podcast for us so interesting is that we come with

12:55

such different experiences sure and one time we kind of brushed on the topic of

13:01

the difference between an artist versus a craftsperson or you know ART versus

13:07

craft I mean obviously that fits our situation right here big time yeah and I

13:13

will say that as a craft artist like I kind of stumble over my voice a little bit when it's like the whole idea of

13:20

what's the message behind the work and certainly a craft someone who works in

13:25

craft can be an artist well of course yeah where there's a message coming out of it but then a fine crafts person who

13:32

works in non-functional craft it does not have to have this message it's really about a celebration of materials

13:38

you know it's like quality and design and you know I mean it's there's a lot to it and I have a lot of empathy for

13:45

craft artists because I used to be one you know my first body of work uh with my ex was uh was craft and so I had a

13:52

little bit of a chip on my shoulder and had I do you feel like you get defensive at all when it comes to that

13:58

conversation I have and I haven't always had the right words to say until I I kind of looked into it more to kind of

14:04

understand the differences between if artist is all about message I mean your

14:10

work isn't about the wood panels you're not taking wood panels and turning them into the most beautiful wood panels you

14:16

could make them right it's not about that it's not about the materials in this case it's about the message but

14:21

then I can also get I can get defensive to maybe a little bit where I'm like I

14:26

definitely am an illustrator I was trained as an illustrator and uh I'm taking that and trying to take it to A

14:31

Fine Art Level but yeah try as I might it's it's illustration I'm a Storyteller and I have no problem with that and I

14:37

embrace that but it's a large scale coming from almost like the Andrew y kind of school not that talented but

14:44

that that kind of school of Storytelling illustration that kind of thing so I get

14:51

it it's a complete difference that you and I have and I like that it's the yin and the Yang of the show craft artist versus

14:57

um pinky out artist but right it's it's it's it's uh it's interesting well there's an intellectualism behind some

15:04

of the work I mean behind artists work where you know you're conveying a message other other artists are you know

15:10

like we talked to Lisa Christine today on the show and yeah she has got a

15:16

message she's trying to convey she's trying to make a connection with people with communities and sharing that

15:24

connection Ella last week talked about creating stories and it makes me think about what I do in

15:32

my personal connection to my work for me the minute I dipped in the the

15:37

glass furnace and started playing with molten glass I got this sense of Attraction it was

15:44

just beyond anything yeah and I just needed to keep playing with it to see what I could make it do how I could make

15:50

it turn out I was not a very good craft artist I don't I don't I didn't really like the

15:56

craft that I was working on necessarily after it it carried its weight for a while would you say that your mouse

16:03

fulfilled with telling stories that oh yeah totally yeah totally like with this body of work when I first started it I

16:09

was like you know with craft you have to make it again every day or it goes to hell it was one of those storybook you

16:14

remember the story people there they ended up being in all these different craft stores and stuff that was a thing

16:20

that I I thought was interesting that applied to craft like you have to make it again every day so there's a joy and

16:27

a something in the repetition that happens with a craft artist that you have to do the repetition and the skill

16:33

that it takes when I first started this body of work I was like I'm never repeating another thing I'm only doing

16:39

this one thing and it drove me a little bit crazy now I'm taking a little bit to a craft artist and I'll say different

16:44

things with the same series each time and each one is definitely unique but I'll definitely go dip back on the same

16:51

well of the same stories that I've told again and again makes sense it does it does totally make sense and yeah I just

16:58

felt like I had the words behind what motivates the work for me and it really

17:03

is This Love of the material and just and you know that changes that changes for people you had a shift where you

17:09

worked in a certain way and moved into another way so it's kind of cool as artists that whatever gets us jazzed and

17:15

motivated to do what we do that's right that's the Special Sauce well here's an interesting segue out of that which is

17:22

is I do find sometimes artists will be like they'll be like well shows aren't as good as they used to be and it's like

17:29

you look at their work and it's like well you've been making the exact same thing for 25 years and selling it the

17:35

exact same shows how do you expect the shows to continue to support a work that doesn't change that doesn't evolve so I

17:41

think that's interesting sometimes you have to look at the common denominator it's like well don't get me wrong I've

17:46

been some terrible shows I've been to some shows that are are just dogs for me and I it's they're not my market they're

17:53

other people's and you just have to look at the common denominator and sometimes that common denominator is U you know

17:58

it's like I don't think I suck but I might be not what this show wants so is

18:06

that the comment it's like okay well if I showed the same four paintings at the same show every year I'm not gonna sell

18:12

them every year you know Douglas you talk about the kind of the Yen and the Yang of you and me doing this the fine

18:18

craft versus you know illustration or fine art or whatever you want to call it but then uh you get into a conversation

18:26

with Lisa today on this week's show and I was like I almost wanted to be like

18:31

okay I retire uh you you just talk to her every week I'm done like she had so

18:37

many stories and so many different things and there's so many little things that like that I found fascinating she's

18:43

talking about getting chased by guards with guns and and chased out of diamond mines and I these are stories I'm like

18:49

okay just tell that story for an hour you know I don't even want to hear anything else it was fascinating and the

18:55

little glimmers of things that you got from her just made me want to kind of dig down deep into her story even more

19:01

so thanks for this this talk that's coming up I think the longer we do this project it's less about talking

19:08

specifically about an artist's career trajectory yeah and it's evolving more

19:15

into these Back stories without doing a direct correlation to the work talking

19:20

about these experiences make the work have that much more meaning and I get

19:27

inspired by the fact that she risks so much to help people and I'm really

19:34

excited about this talk and I can't wait for everyone to hear everything she had to say then let's be quiet and let's get

19:39

right to it let's do it here's Lee Lisa Christine coming from California not the Midwest finally

19:45

this episode of The Independent artist podcast is brought to you by zap the digital application service where

19:50

artists and art festivals connect hey well do you remember the old way of doing these applications with red dots

19:56

on the slides and self-addressed stamped envelopes do you still have a rotary phone Douglas no I don't remember that

20:04

well I just like that they were with us back then when we made the switch from analog to digital it's a huge switch and

20:11

now zap is the industry standard and they're always creating features that make our lives easier too so I do like

20:17

what zap does and I do like that most of the shows I apply to are ons application

20:23

exactly so I personally appreciate what zap is doing and thanks for not making us reinvent the wheel every single week

20:29

like we used to have to do Lisa Christine thank you for joining us today on the podcast it's good to see you good

20:35

to see you as well first time we met I don't know if you remember it was 20 years ago at the Wells Street Art Festival wow that's amazing isn't it

20:43

when I started this podcast project and I was thinking of people I'd like to talk to your work has always left a big

20:49

impression on me and so I went to kind of look at your website and look at your

20:54

social media and oh my God it was like blown away at the scope of where your career has gone does it even surprise

21:02

you how big of a presence you have out there uh that's very gracious of you yeah I I feel more than anything just

21:10

grateful you know because this whole Arc of Art and Arc of discovery of ourselves

21:17

through ART and discovery of the world through my work in particular it's like

21:22

it just feels really good and it is mind-blowing to me sometimes but it it

21:27

also feels like that that idea of ripples going out you know sure yeah I

21:33

mean when you take the next step and we'll get into the particulars here we're just kind of setting things up but it's like when you take the next step

21:39

you don't Envision like where those big ripples are gonna eventually end up and so I'm sure you're just going like one

21:46

step at a time and at some point it might turn into like a boulder rolling downhill or a freight train picking up

21:51

steam right so how's photography always been the medium that you've worked in

21:57

well you know when I was a kid I was always I I did a lot of drawing I've always been a writer I love writing

22:04

poetry and I love playing musical instruments and and I love photography

22:10

but actually it wasn't at all my intention to to be a photographer it sort of fell in my lap as a career

22:15

choice or as a career in general actually went to school to study Fashion Design and Merchandising and I finished

22:22

it and I was like oh well that was nice but no that's not going to be so you got

22:27

to the end of it and you were like ready to Pivot into something else it was like yeah yeah that's why I left the country

22:32

you know and like anyone who leaves a country one brings a camera and I had been

22:38

photographing since I was 11 and I had a mentor who taught me how to print seba

22:43

Chrome so it's like I knew how to do things it was part of a skill of mine and a joy of mine much like writing or

22:49

drawing or music but it just happened to get feet you know so your first

22:55

Adventure away from the U.S it wasn't necessarily to go photograph it was to

23:02

go have an experience it was that what you're saying yeah well I I'd always had a yearning since I was a little kid to

23:08

go out into the world and to be with people that lived a lot closer to the Earth because I think like my childhood

23:14

was kind of Rocky and like my mom had these anthropology books I used to look at these people covered with feathers

23:21

and mud and from my childlike perspective I think they they sort of resembled the Earth itself and seemed to

23:28

me rather unshakable and I did not in any way feel unshakable and I remember

23:33

walking out into the middle of the street and determining when I was old enough I would go out there and meet those people and I would find out what

23:39

it was they had so I could bring it into my own life so I always think of going out into the world from me as a way to

23:47

discover possibility for my life and a way to discover strength for my life and

23:52

it never was frightening to me I always felt like it was a form of discovery of

23:58

the world but also the inner world you know wow so to to be so like curious and

24:03

I have such a knowing at that age like I'm gonna go figure out who these people are to explore that I mean that's that's

24:09

pretty profound that's pretty cool so what was it like when you've had that first experience well I was gone for

24:15

five years oh this wasn't a short trip it was an immersion it was a total

24:20

immersion and it's funny because you know I give a lot of talks and and I've given a few talks to photography groups

24:26

and one years ago and I asked instead of being paid gosh would you mind just giving me your you know your feedback

24:32

because feedback is vital right right and one of them wrote me you must be a trust fund baby

24:39

[Applause] I thought that was so brilliant because indeed that was the antithesis said who

24:46

I was but so when I went away traveling for five years what that means is you've got a pack on your back that fits your

24:52

camera and you're bopping around at like five bucks a day or two bucks a day and I'd save three thousand dollars over the

24:58

course of a few years and off I went into the wild wild world and um oh it

25:04

was just so awesome I feel like for me that's a true University you know

25:09

um I learned so much from that experience and continue to when I travel so where did you land initially like

25:16

what how did it kind of evolve those five years was it lots of different places lots of different Journeys well

25:22

initially it was um in Europe I landed the intention was not to remain there but I had relatives and continue to in

25:28

in Denmark so I bought around Europe and did all that and ended up in down in

25:34

Egypt at one point and maybe I don't know like seven months eight months later and I remember being in Cairo and

25:42

seeing like I was 18 you know and seeing these uh brochures on these temples in

25:47

Thailand I remember distinctly looking at it and and thinking oh I won't be home for a long time that was that it

25:53

was just that just opened it up yeah I just felt like there was so much to see and there was so much to learn but I

25:59

remember that distinct thought like it's I won't be home for a long time there's too much but then I ended up in in you

26:06

know the Middle East in Asia and then Africa and just kind of all over in South America it just kind of evolved

26:11

and it was marvelous your work has evolved into exposing human rights issues and

26:19

obviously there was probably a progression from getting into the humanity of it did it start as capturing

26:27

scenery or was it right away you just started to bond with other people I've always been a humanistic photographer uh

26:35

I I love landscape and I I know many photographers who do that so well I've

26:40

never been drawn to photograph it although I I very much enjoy being in it I love connecting with people you know

26:47

the minute I'm pressing that exposure in that authentic space it's just such a a

26:53

wonderful connection for me but I I've always been into photographing people that's always been an interest to me so

27:00

that was the way it started back then always even even when I was 11 my my aunt and uncle who greatly raised me

27:07

actually in part they gave me my first camera and I remember I would go out and make photos of you know my family and my

27:14

friends but not in the typical kind of grinning sort of way I was always sort

27:20

of drawn to someone's Infinity their sense of self their sense of ponderance

27:25

about themselves or their lives or a brooding intensity like that was always somehow interesting to me and it felt

27:34

more real to me not to displace joy joy always has a wonderful place in the

27:39

world but somehow photographically that moved to me that the eyes or the the

27:44

composition or whatever is going on in the photo is really drawing something out of what's Happening internally of

27:51

the subject is is that right is that what I'm hearing yes yes it was kind of a defining moment where you went from

28:00

doing this as artwork capturing people capturing their experience and then you

28:06

kind of had that shift towards activism and humanitarianism was there something

28:11

that kind of led to that oh yeah for sure I think there was I always feel like art in whatever form we happen to

28:18

take it on as artists they're always our teachers so it's really for me in hindsight that I recognized what art was

28:25

for me and and as a notion when I think of my body of work it's it's most

28:30

certainly about inspiring Unity you know this notion that in our differences we are one the idea that all of us matter

28:38

and all of us deserve to be seen and deserve basic human rights you know like

28:44

shelter and food and decency and then later

28:49

it must have been in the early 2000s I I learned about slavery and it was really

28:56

it was really I had been asked to be the exhibitor for the world peace Summit in Vancouver with his Holiness of Dalai

29:02

Lama and other Nobel laureates and while I was there exhibiting someone approached me and and they said wow have

29:10

you ever thought of documenting slavery and I and I said what are you talking about okay so your body of work that you

29:17

had been capturing for years was already being recognized and in this show what

29:23

was the name of the show for you said the pope and Dalai Lama it was a world peace Summit well I had just been chosen

29:29

to be the exhibitor because being that that was a summit on peacekeeping my work is about diversity and right and

29:37

inclusion and so I think that's why they had asked me to be the exhibitor so was

29:42

being approached to focus on slavery was that kind of a pivotal shift when things

29:48

kind of got ramped up a bed or or went deeper yeah no you know actually well the summit itself was was really on

29:55

peace in the world and it just happened to be that one of the participants was from a non-profit that fought slavery

30:01

and approached me and that's how the conversation started for me right she

30:06

was having somebody tell me that actually did exist and while I had known that some trafficking

30:12

was present in our world and that I assumed to be sex trafficking I didn't understand that the numbers were at some

30:20

27 million and by the way the new estimates just came out from walk free and ILO and iom that let us know that

30:28

today there's more than 50 million people that are enslaved those are the new stats so I think back then when

30:35

nobody really knew that slavery happened today you see slavery and trafficking in all the newspapers and and that's

30:43

because people believe it but back then the the few foundations who were trying to get funding they couldn't get it

30:49

because people didn't even believe it existed so I who also hadn't realized it

30:55

when my entire career is based on you know observing others I've been to like 150 countries I'm out in the world

31:01

constantly noting that I had missed observing it like I had not seen it I

31:07

was so troubled you know I was so troubled like I'm sure I'm sure it was like it was right in front of your face

31:14

and then you see it through a different lens I guess pun intended you know you

31:20

see it through that lens and suddenly it becomes deeply personal yeah it did and I couldn't sleep and I like within a

31:26

week after I left the summit I booked a flight and flew down to Los Angeles and I met with the founders of an

31:33

organization called free the slave who I've raised a lot of money for through my work we we met and came up with this

31:41

plan and that kind of set me off on a whole new Journey where I would fly around the

31:46

world and document in fact many of the countries that I had spent a lot of time in but this time I would see really the

31:53

skeletons in the closet I would see it from such a different vantage point so you were going back to places you were

31:58

familiar with with a new a new vantage point oh yes and totally different totally different totally different like

32:05

different totally different conditions you're saying like different situations yeah well certainly different situations

32:12

and instead of me being on my own with my small team I was with abolitionists

32:17

that were working undercover I went up to many countries around the world documenting and brothels and illegal

32:24

gold mines like hundreds of feet deep in the ground down dark holes where only the slaves would go down and brick Kilns

32:32

and all kinds of farming and Agriculture and domestic servitude and all these

32:37

different things and of course when I look back on that body of work you know the whole body of work which as you

32:42

might imagine it was dangerous to do right it was made in little Windows of like 10 to 20 minutes max that whole

32:49

body of work because of the lack of safety for me and also those people that were forced to be enslaved in the

32:56

situations yeah that's one of the main questions I was wondering because I mean you're exposing these human rights

33:03

violations it's not like it people who are enslaving these folks are just opening up the doors and say hey come on

33:09

in and let me show you what we're doing here right yeah they don't do that no red carpet nothing no welcome sign

33:17

no yeah yeah so I mean is the the work that you did on exposing slavery is that

33:24

it was that whole initiative part of one project or is it something you visit

33:29

revisit over time and and are in those situations again yeah that was it initially I think I

33:36

think body of work I started making in since 2009 okay and I continued

33:42

photographing in the field slavery and I've also do a a great deal

33:48

of advocacy around the topic of modern day slavery and you know I speak all

33:54

over the world to advocate for awareness building and education and Law changes

34:00

and implementation of laws to me that's deeply important and I think that

34:06

what photography has or artwork in general has is the ability to transcend language so you have this visual aha

34:14

that is very touching to people and it very quickly pulls people out of their heads into the hearts and that's why I'm

34:21

like I'm often asked to open plenaries at the UN or the Vatican or other heads of state around the world because it

34:28

becomes personal becomes this is our brother and sisters around the world and they're being treated like this so what

34:34

can we do because you can't turn your face away once you've seen it how do you form those connections with people who

34:42

speak different languages who have you know their culture is quite different from what you're used to how do you how

34:50

do you find your way in there into the heart like that you know into their situation do you mean the greater body

34:56

of work or modern day slavery I guess I guess that's true you you kind of have two different intentions or different

35:03

focuses when you maybe are traveling is that true why they're very different they're very different like the one the

35:10

slavery that we were talking about that was kind of like get in get the photos use that work for speaking for shining a

35:19

light and that kind of thing but then the greater body of work it sounds like you are becoming part of the community

35:26

coming in and meeting with people almost being like a fly on the wall is that is

35:33

that what your experience is like um well with the modern day slavery work it's definitively working with

35:39

abolitionists on the ground it would be impossible to gain access otherwise because their trust is imbued within the

35:45

community and it's very particular in the moments we can go in they're just constantly on their cell phones there's

35:50

a lot of safety involved in that and it's very quick agile on the feet 35 millimeter bang it out quick my other

35:57

work is more ponderous my other work is about meeting with the heart it's really about learning about people getting to

36:03

know them working together with them but only after our permission I never photograph without permission ever in

36:10

any situation it's not interesting to me but but that work you know I have a lot

36:15

more time so I can use my four by five and medium format it's a totally different feel okay but but both have

36:22

their place and I think both have their messages too because no matter how you look at it it's sort

36:28

of to me even in the slavery work even if the situation is completely dire and

36:35

full of such Hazard and hardship what's interesting to me is the Dignity of that person enduring it so my work is always

36:42

has an emblem of that I believe that's important to me and in that way they're very similar and that way they are okay

36:49

but I hope that they both yeah that they both have their message because really the message about all of my work is to

36:56

to kind of pause and look at one another and remember that we're all in this

37:01

thing with a capital l spelled l-i-f-e and we're all in it together all of us matter that goes for the refugee crisis

37:09

for any atrocity happening around the world and slavery and human rights issues and violations and just you know

37:16

your partner in the room you know your husband your wife all of it it's all relational and it's all about being seen

37:23

and being respected you know okay thanks for clarifying that because in your overall body of work there's like two

37:29

intentions or two focuses and so when I ask some of these questions I see that

37:35

they need to be pointedly different because it's almost like that when you're working with the Abolitionist

37:42

that is it's like journalism in a way I mean you're using you're using your art

37:48

but it's a way to speak out and to reveal what's happening yes and then the

37:55

other it almost sounds like there's not like the adrenaline rush I mean no it's

38:01

very different you don't have to be ready to you know run your ass off when someone's chasing

38:07

you with a gun oh my God that sounds that sounds I've been for the most part extremely

38:13

fortunate but but there are just situations that are much more dangerous and it's a different it's like yeah

38:18

definite adrenaline it's it's a different animal yeah the Abolitionist were you saying are they like undercover

38:25

and the thing that they're doing on the phones is like saying hey we've got this narrow window of time where nobody's

38:31

looking at us we can come in and do what we need to do we can expose this is that what's happening yeah more or less

38:37

really the the people that are working in the anti-slavery movement in each community in each particular type of

38:44

slavery within a country will be different people and they're all intimate within their own Community okay and they for the most part do work

38:51

undercover so that the people that are enslaved are entrusting of that

38:56

individual and so when they're making calls they're all working together they're trying to find Windows when the

39:01

traffickers are are removed or the managers are removed and I can quickly go in and make these images and get out

39:08

so so there's a lot of a lot of communication that's going on a lot there's you know people on the

39:14

perimeters watching what's happening at all times and then somebody right beside me shadowing me because when we have to

39:21

go we have to go in a nanosecond we can't hang out in a way I feel quite ignorant to the whole topic I didn't

39:28

know that the problem was as big or pervasive or the details like you're exposing here so is slavery outlawed and

39:37

illegal all around the world or is slavery allowed in some countries well

39:43

that's a great question it's actually illegal in every country but it exists in every country and every country every

39:50

country pretty much it exists and in some countries it's it's it's certainly more accepted but it's illegal in all of

39:57

them yeah and I think the most challenging thing about slavery is that it's it's hidden in plain sight right

40:02

sure so even in the United States it could be you know your server at a restaurant it could be a guy in a gas

40:09

station right in a little kiosk and you wouldn't know you would just assume the person before you is getting paid or

40:14

receiving the tips you're giving them or can go home at night but many of them have you know they don't have their

40:20

passport they're not in control of their lives at all like at all they're forced to work just constantly yeah I mean we

40:26

see flyers and rest stops we're going by but and that's probably so removed that

40:32

is progress that's progress that's huge progress I mean the idea that there's Flyers that when you go into the airport

40:38

there's information the idea that a U.N General Assembly they dedicated entire week to discussing human trafficking

40:45

these days these are all huge in my mind accomplishments that clearly didn't exist 10 years ago so I feel like

40:53

there's just been a lot of progress even though the statistical numbers get larger but that's of course largely

41:00

because it's hard to get stats on things that are hidden and so pervasive that we

41:06

don't have our grip on yet you know so as we further ourselves down the road of really understanding and really being

41:13

able to gain statistics I think they're going to get larger before they get smaller but alongside that you have a

41:19

lot more people that are advocating for change you know so I think that's important right once we see the scope

41:27

and the breadth of the problem it's hard to look away it's hard to say oh I can't do anything about it I mean when you

41:35

were first presented with the idea that hey how would you like to help cover or

41:42

expose what's going on with slavery in the world was there a feeling of can I really make

41:48

a difference can my images make a difference did you have anything like that I knew that they would make a

41:55

difference I didn't feel like that I chose to do that body of work I feel like I was really called to do it like I

42:02

couldn't sleep I had to do something I I felt utterly compelled that I knew I had

42:08

to go do it it was really like one of those Strange Life moments where you just know you have to take that step and

42:15

isn't it Joseph Campbell that says if you take one step toward the gods the gods take 10 toward you I mean I I feel

42:22

like I've learned so much from this experience and it's not been easy it's been enormously challenging and

42:29

frightening but I also know that it makes a difference and I know that each

42:34

of us every one of us can do something in our own skill house Talent house

42:39

giving house to help a situation that matters to us to help to help another right yeah I mean that's pretty profound

42:47

that the second you were exposed to this you were able to open up to that and to

42:53

be like this is my calling this is something I have to do whether or not anybody ever does anything different

43:00

because of my work or my you know me taking photographs of the situation it I

43:05

have to do it and then it did have such a profound effect it's huge it's huge what people are seeing what was the

43:12

first situation that you were involved in where you were brought on site to expose what was going on my first

43:19

physical introduction to photographing slavery was in India in the brick homes

43:25

and okay they're already like going to the Giza Pyramids I just remember

43:32

feeling like I had entered Dante's Inferno you know it was like it was so hot it was like 130 degrees and you'd

43:39

see these men women and children cloaked in a blanket of smoke like stacking bricks on their heads 18 at a time each

43:46

brick weighs three four pounds it it was incredible yeah and heartbreaking you'd see these Elders in there people that

43:53

were stooped over so skinny just bones with powder of brick dust on them and

43:59

stacking bricks oh I remember at one point I started to cry I I started to

44:05

have a tear go down my face and the Abolitionist who was next to me just

44:10

shook me abruptly and said Lisa you cannot do that you cannot do that here

44:15

there is no room for that it's not safe for you and it's not safe for them and in that instant I realized that

44:21

I wasn't here to do that and that I was here to give what I could to bring a

44:27

remedy to the situation and that I had to trust people on the ground like people that do the real work like these

44:33

abolitionists that work undercover that risk their lives every day not the few days that I'm doing it at a time and to

44:40

trust that they would be able to help these people it was very moving I mean on some occasions when we were working

44:45

it was so hot that the people the abolitionists and translators that I was with were vomiting and fainting because

44:52

of the severity of the Heat and my camera became too hot to even touch it stopped working it you couldn't touch it

44:59

was so hot and I'd have to jog back to the Cruiser have the the driver turn the

45:04

ignition on and pass the camera beneath the the air conditioning to revive it

45:09

back to functioning and I'm sitting there thinking this box this black box this camera is getting more good welfare

45:18

attention than these people ever will that was like a real strange thought to have and I'd run back out there and do

45:25

more work and yeah they're moving bricks around their their physical laboring and that heat yeah and just the camera doing

45:33

nothing but being held in that heat was shutting down yeah wow yeah that was

45:38

very impressive memory yeah well shifting over to working in your broader

45:46

body of work can you tell us about what it's like immersing yourself into a

45:53

culture and kind of becoming part of the group and getting the trust and sharing

46:00

back and forth and to be able to photograph that what is that experience like or are there any memorable

46:06

experiences from that well I always say that a stranger is a friend you just haven't met yet when I go out into the

46:13

world I'm so curious about people I'm just curious about like when I hear a different language it's like I just love

46:21

it yeah yeah and and I had learned at a young age when I was away when I well not too young going 18 and spending all

46:28

that time that you don't need language to be with people you don't need language to live with them to help to

46:34

enjoy to laugh you don't and I work 100 of the time with translators and that's a big process on

46:40

its own however that's nowadays and I guess my point is that even with our

46:46

differences that we have that it's so easy to have this knee-jerk reaction of being afraid of someone because of that

46:52

difference as opposed to being curious or having a sense of wonder about them you know and I guess that's how I see

47:00

people I I have this strange feeling when I leave the country and I go elsewhere into these areas it's kind of

47:07

this visceral thing for me but I I sort of dump my nationality I dump my female

47:13

male I just kind of show up with with a presence okay and I don't mean that Nana grandiose way that I mean that in a

47:20

really simple way right because what I'm interested is is in meeting somebody in that same state once you're able to sort

47:28

of get into that authentic sense of presence with someone I feel that's when

47:33

the magic happens you know and and that that is so wondrous to me you know like I I

47:40

spend time at the feet of Elders around the world I have had the opportunity of documenting a group of centenarians that

47:48

were all you know over 100 years old one woman 116. and I have this very keen

47:53

memory I was in Sardinia with Dr Elizabeth Lindsay and another friend Jay

47:59

Williams and I was documenting these centenarians and I would always kneel at their feet

48:04

and put my hands on their lap and at one point this this woman 116 like can you

48:11

imagine no actually sorry I made that mistake she's 110. that was someone else

48:16

110. she had these young aunties were like well like they're in their 80s or

48:22

something they were young and and she started as speaking to me just just

48:27

saying all this stuff in Sardinia and let alone Italian so I had no idea what she was saying but I did and the aunties

48:34

were saying oh no no she's just babbling she doesn't understand you and my

48:39

translator explained to me the situation and and I and I looked at the aunties and I said no I understand everything

48:45

she's saying because I knew she was just blessing me I knew she was just telling me all the good stuff that I

48:52

needed to know about my life and that sums it up you know like what is it that we need to do and when I would finish

48:58

working with all these centenarians I'd ask them what gift would you give the world with all the experience that

49:03

you've had okay invariably the answer was always the same and it was always help one another you know just help one

49:10

another it's the most simple thing if your neighbor needs milk you give them milk I I I Marvel at that because

49:18

it's not complicated yeah well so do you ever have when you come

49:24

in to cultures that maybe don't even know because there's not technology life

49:31

beyond what they physically see right there I'm not saying you're a scary person but it is

49:40

of like who is this person what is she here I mean do you have to break through

49:45

that kind of initial barrier with them in some cases you know I don't really have that

49:52

experience and I have to say I imagine most people would but I've just been doing this so long that I don't ever

49:58

feel that way that's what I mean about dropping things away viscerally I I mean obviously I

50:05

don't feel like I'm their neighbor and then when I walk in I don't look dissimilar but I feel always a welcoming

50:12

presence from people and I and I like to think that who we are what we bring to

50:18

the table when we interact with one another you know whatever Grace we provide or Bruce Miss whatever it is

50:23

it's like life is a mirror and I think that it's it's sort of like befriending someone and coming arriving with an open

50:31

heart and arriving with authentic honesty like sure arriving with the truth about what you're doing you know

50:38

that matters right that makes sense to me I just uh I recorded yesterday with

50:43

Ella Richards and Ella came to the U.S from Soviet Union as a young girl and

50:51

the thing that is really throughout her talk she made it very clear that being

50:57

an immigrant and not knowing the language that you could get a sense

51:02

from people's eyes from their gestures from their everything about their body

51:08

language that made her feel am I unsafe am I welcomed am I meeting

51:17

with somebody who has genuine love and compassion in their heart for me or someone who wants to do me harm so I'm

51:23

sure that all of that non-verbal is going on when you're making the introductions and when you're you're

51:28

being welcomed into different communities and different cultures yeah and I think that you know you learn to

51:34

read people well when you're put in situations where you're sort of Landing

51:40

in places very dissimilar where there is not necessarily a shared language or you're the you're the minority the one

51:47

it's it's good I think it's good and I have had um experiences that were of

51:53

harsher nature one being in Haiti in a a very dangerous slum called City Soleil I

51:59

had met up with these gang members there through this fellow I was working with it was my fixer there and yeah they were

52:05

very suspicious of me and that took time to undo and that was a very scary

52:12

situation for me I remember being wondering if I'd get out of there actually but the barrier got broken you know and the

52:19

bridge was built that's my thing you know Bill Bridges cool and I can only imagine being an

52:25

immigrant in this country and what that must have been like for Ella it's something that unless you're in her

52:32

shoes you wouldn't be able to really understand you know yeah and I think it is one of the downfalls we have a lot of

52:39

privileges in this country and I think that to not be aware of that

52:46

there are a lot of people here in the U.S who feel like we live in the greatest country in the world and

52:52

they're very arrogant about it and they're very selfish about it and

52:57

they're very hateful about it in regards to having possession and ownership over

53:04

what is theirs and what isn't somebody else's and I think that's the big lesson that

53:12

we need to learn as a culture of people born and raised in the United States to

53:18

open our eyes to what is out there on the greater world yeah I actually think

53:23

um as a bit of compassionate insight for the United States one of the issues is

53:28

that the United States is such a large country it's it's huge so many people never moved I mean they don't move out

53:35

of their state let alone their country and people tend to be insular by nature

53:40

in a way and they're not interested in things that don't directly affect them so we don't get like the best

53:46

international news we never know what's going on and if if people do get it they don't particularly resonate with it or

53:53

care I feel like unless it's judgmental and I I feel that's a big downfall for

54:00

us and at the same time I can understand how it would happen I mean when you're in Europe you can skip over to a country

54:07

in a few hours it's not like entire countries you would fit in one of our little States right so it's so

54:14

interesting having a breadth of awareness beyond our own immediacy is

54:20

such a misfortune not to exercise not to be aware of you know because then we

54:27

develop this fear of others and fear of difference and oh that's such a loss right okay what I got from you earlier

54:35

you say that when you take your photographs or when you are in a

54:41

community in a culture and taking photos the key thing is permission right and

54:48

so you have presented a body of work that is beautiful it shows the world it

54:56

exposes human indecencies and pain it sounds to me

55:02

like you have a definite line as to what is showing appreciation and

55:10

where it could be exploitive can you talk a little bit about that fine line

55:15

when working that way yeah you know actually it's I'm part of

55:21

a the king of Dubai has this organization called Dubai cares and one of the things they're doing within it is

55:27

delegating this idea of dignified storytelling so I've been on several of their panels building what that is

55:34

because the thing about going into a situation especially like where people are enslaved or where people are in

55:42

Refugee crisis where they're definitely not in a power position you know right and I think that one of the key elements

55:49

to me is permission it's permission you don't just go up and take something and

55:55

I don't even in terms of creating photographs I don't use the word take I always say make but take something from

56:01

somebody a thing or a photograph that that energy it values the word tape

56:08

right I think when when one goes out in the world one has to figure out what is it that they're trying to say and

56:15

secondly are they trying to show a form of Horror in which this human being that

56:20

could be you actually is experiencing this horror do they want to be the poster child of that horror or are you

56:28

gonna frame it in a way that they're the empowered person in it I think all of that really matters I think the language

56:34

around photography matters we talk we say words like take we say words like shoot I'm gonna go shooting today all of

56:40

that I just find it so intriguing that that photography has that language which I do not use but I have ever thought of

56:47

it like that that is oh yeah it's it's always it's kind of akin to hunting in

56:52

terms of language can I say it like hunting yeah right those distinctions matter but I think

56:58

permission and how one is choosing to share someone's story visual story

57:05

matters I think it matters yeah this is a topic that is hard to

57:12

talk about and I've spoken with other artists not on the podcast about

57:18

the idea that we've gotten to a place in society right

57:23

now where we really value representation and we we value hearing people's

57:31

experiences but the Catch-22 with that is it almost seems like you have to be

57:38

from that particular group to be able to share that story The criticism is you

57:45

don't have the the right to tell that story and I just was curious how what you feel about that or how what your

57:52

take on that topic would be you know my take on all of this

57:58

um but especially what you're saying now I think it matters and I do think that it's a point of view and I believe that

58:05

life is absolutely completely and wholeheartedly perception and how we perceive things and I will even dare say

58:11

choose to perceive things is is kind of how the outcome is obviously the the

58:18

people that I photograph largely are not people that look like me they are not people that are in the economic space

58:25

that I'm in and I'm aware of that I'm aware of that does it prevent me from

58:31

what I believe to be a creator of something ultimately

58:37

very valuable not not just to myself or to people who collect my work or museums

58:43

that how's my work or talks I give around the world whatever that is but I believe from my perception

58:51

that it allows I'll say for the most part cultures that are daily disappearing to be celebrated to have

58:59

been documented to it's a reminder to me it's like you have a sense of

59:05

intelligence and then you have sort of this indigenous wisdom and they both are

59:11

important and and if I as as a honest living of my life then I when I say

59:17

living I don't mean in terms of waging but someone who is living my life find Value in that that I know will touch

59:24

people's hearts that will inspire them to be stirred inside to to perhaps

59:30

change their attitude change their mind about another race that might Inspire them to contribute to

59:37

something beyond their own intimate life to help another person then I feel very

59:42

proud of that and I I I think too that it's important to give back and it's all

59:48

such a fine balance right but it all matters I think it all matters thank you

59:54

for putting voice to that I think it's a beautiful way to explain that it's

59:59

important work it's valuable work and the intention is everything I think the

1:00:05

intention is is key okay on a yearly basis how many different kinds of trips

1:00:13

for source of inspiration for your work do you take is it pretty regular or does

1:00:18

it kind of flow it flows and sometimes there's a lot going on and sometimes there isn't

1:00:24

because I'm either flying somewhere to create images or I am flying somewhere for meetings or

1:00:32

I am flying somewhere to speak I just it just depends but I tend to be out and

1:00:37

about pretty frequently how does your kind of overall career breakdown between

1:00:43

like the activism piece the speaking piece the generating new images like

1:00:49

because it almost seems like you have several different careers going on under the kind of the the bigger umbrella I

1:00:54

kind of do the photography is that's my life right that's my sustenance that's how I

1:01:01

survive is by collectors really and I've been very fortunate with that I I always

1:01:06

go out and make my work and I come back and I share it and that's been the same for the slavery except the slavery work

1:01:13

has gained feet in these other venues if you will like definitely activism and

1:01:18

things like that it is like I mean I always laugh because I am so bloody busy all the time

1:01:24

I've had already this morning a call with London a call with Australia and

1:01:29

Switzerland before we had this podcast but I love it all and I feel like I can't not love it we have three children

1:01:37

one in college two in high school and so my trips are frequent but they're not

1:01:42

long because I want to be I have to be I want to be present for them you know for sure yeah yeah that's that's a that's a

1:01:50

struggle you know the the career and and home life I mean that's the balance you

1:01:57

can't be saving the world and then your home life suffers so you have to put in

1:02:03

the time and in all those places yes and the way to save the world is to save yourself and to save your family and to

1:02:09

be in other words to be to be present to be truly you know right present if

1:02:15

you're off at one of these experiences where you need to be speaking on big

1:02:22

issues if on the inside you're feeling bad about what's not being taken care of at home then you can't help the world

1:02:29

yeah yeah because that home is suffering so it sounds like a balancing act for

1:02:36

sure yeah for sure so tell me when you are in those moments

1:02:43

where you are meeting new people and generating new work

1:02:49

how do you create the image I'm sure that the relationship comes first right

1:02:56

the interaction with people getting to know them before the camera comes out is

1:03:03

that true yes I I again I I never work without permission and it's pretty

1:03:09

involved I mean I go and I I sit with the community it's it's involved project

1:03:14

and then we sort of work in this harmony harmonistic way to create the work

1:03:20

together um I don't like to go too into that forgive me because I feel like that

1:03:25

takes away from what the work was really about I don't know how to explain that but no I understand I like the work to

1:03:32

sort of stand on its own without being explained if that doesn't make sense without the back story around how it's

1:03:37

yeah and it's a personal it's such a deeply personal interaction that's happening when you look at one of the

1:03:45

subjects and they're looking at you however the image is set up that you can feel what is being communicated

1:03:53

that's the magic and yeah it transcends interpreters it transcends language it

1:03:58

transcends all of that yes perfect words I totally I totally get that like I've

1:04:04

been following your Instagram and there's an image that really struck me and it's the man praying in the cavern

1:04:12

and the vastness of that Cavern he's this small

1:04:17

person he's a small figure in the greater shot but his presence fills that

1:04:23

Cavern it's like a deep sense of reverence a sense of spiritual strength

1:04:28

I mean there's just so much going on there and all of your images evoke that it evokes a conversation and that's what

1:04:37

I've always loved about your work yeah I I I I felt very grateful to have been

1:04:43

given the opportunity and permission to work there and I did so very quietly and that light that was coming through you

1:04:49

know the monks they Ponder the light it's called that image is called contemplation of light and they they literally contemplate the

1:04:56

light and you know I look at all these images really like they're teachers right to me

1:05:02

for my life and um that I that that Serenity and his

1:05:08

aloneness but but for me not loneliness it's really about connecting with with oneself and Source

1:05:15

you know I yeah I I there's a little teeny green leaf on that rock actually at the base of his

1:05:23

his posture his sitting position and it's so I didn't even see that for like

1:05:29

I printed it a few times and hadn't even seen it so funny but really I love that there's this little green leaf there

1:05:34

just sitting there on the Rock but I love that image yeah it's one of those

1:05:40

surprises that's the other thing with artwork we love when there's a surprise right really totally

1:05:46

as you've said you don't do many of the outdoor shows anymore but I mean I've

1:05:53

seen you a couple of times this year you have this Gallery in Sonoma you have

1:05:58

exhibitions why do you still do the fine art shows the outdoor art shows are they

1:06:04

still important to you are they still important part of your business model well you know it's funny I stopped doing

1:06:11

shows and then I did like two a year and then I was just doing all my other stuff but then I started thinking about when I

1:06:19

do an exhibition as an example they're great and they're they're they're really neat and I feel very fortunate to have

1:06:25

them inaugurated by special people and to have a lot of the public gum however when I think about museums it's sort of

1:06:31

this Niche crowd in a way you know not everybody goes to a museum and when

1:06:37

you're at a show anyone could come anyone and everyone that happens to be walking down that streets you know a few

1:06:44

hundred thousand people that's a lot of impact and my mission being to inspire

1:06:49

Unity like you have to come hang out my booth sometime but it's really fun to watch people because you could see them

1:06:56

you could see their minds ticking you could just see it happening and I guess

1:07:03

I feel like it's it's it's part of my mission and what I love to do

1:07:09

they are tiring I love doing it but you know they're they're rather long hours and yeah yeah but I think it they're

1:07:16

worthy and I've done a few more this year and I don't know that I'll be able

1:07:22

to continue with that because I do get busy but they do feel special they do feel like a part of what needs to be

1:07:30

done I guess is there a sense is your booth like you said come hang out on

1:07:35

your booth is there constant conversations happening about this image or what happened here or just feedback

1:07:42

the constant there's constant constant I like watching people be inspired as

1:07:49

they are with all of us artists yeah it's a wonderful thing and I I guess I

1:07:54

just feel like it's a great place to be I mean that's in large part how my career started many years ago outside of

1:08:00

being at a you know an agency when I was very young and there's been a lot of gifts on the way and the art shows the

1:08:08

the whole Community although I don't have an opportunity to see so many people anymore and I'm probably a little

1:08:14

out of the sink but when I fly in for a show and I and I get to hang with everybody I I feel like artists are so

1:08:21

warm everybody's so helpful with one another and there's a real nice tribe I

1:08:28

think and respect for one another's crafts and I think for for just really

1:08:33

living the life of an artist I just have always found that to be very special at art shows you know well I I think that

1:08:40

your work has such a deep personal connection you have in immersed yourself into these

1:08:48

issues and the work isn't just taking this talk has been so enlightening to me

1:08:55

about what makes you tick about where your intention is with your work and I'm

1:09:01

just so inspired by that that call to action that activism that

1:09:07

humanitarianism that getting down into the trenches that you do there's just so

1:09:12

many parts of your personality that are just being realized through this career that you've created

1:09:18

yeah I feel like uh it's been a real sense of learning for me and the thing I

1:09:24

love most about my career my passion and my life is is that I'm always in this

1:09:30

constant state of learning you know people aren't my subjects that I photograph they're my mentors I have

1:09:36

learned how to live through them I never would take that for granted you know Lisa

1:09:43

thank you so much for talking to me today this has been a lot of fun and I appreciate it so much back kitchen I'm

1:09:48

glad we finally made it happen I kept pinging you you said keep coming

1:09:56

with me just keep hanging too much going on but I'll get there well this has been a pleasure and I

1:10:02

learned a lot from you thank you for sharing your story and have a good rest your day that's great thank you you too

1:10:09

have a lovely day and I'll talk to you soon bye-bye well great talk with Lisa

1:10:14

Christine as always Douglas I thoroughly enjoyed this one and I found her to be inspiring and and interesting to kind of

1:10:21

Broach some of this subjects of of uh you know you guys kind of even touched on appropriation and and I've talked to

1:10:28

other artists about that as well and it's an interesting kind of topic to bring into the to the dialogue it's a

1:10:34

tricky subject and it's one that gets us a little nervous and I'm glad that she had a real conversation about where the

1:10:40

line is for her and she didn't feel like I was accusing or or having no having a

1:10:46

turn on her I wanted to know where that where that all fits in in the conversation sure where's the line and

1:10:53

um it's not like she's ever gonna shy away from it because I don't think she's ever shied away from anything that's one of the things I learned so interesting

1:10:59

talk and and lots of different topics that we dug down into well Douglas we've got a couple of big you're working on

1:11:05

some commission work and a big install for your New Jersey clients and and uh well you know we had one that kind of

1:11:10

snuck in ahead of it we had to put it on pause for a bit because this New Jersey thing they have to meet with committees

1:11:18

and everyone has to have a vote and things have to be determined so there was a good period of time where I kind

1:11:23

of got tabled okay yeah so you're working with a committee did you do the committee thing that is my favorite

1:11:29

trick when you know you're dealing with a committee and just I know your trick that's pretty funny question for the committee is is have

1:11:36

three ideas that are possibilities but make sure you include a clinker so that's something

1:11:43

make sure you give those people that that run their mouths in meetings because I I came from a corporate world

1:11:48

very briefly yeah but if you if you have something that they can make them feel good so you drop a real big deuce right

1:11:56

there in the rest of your offers you have these three great offers and then one terrible one and then they're like oh well that's a wonderful uh so what if

1:12:04

they pick the deuce offer that's what I'm wondering I'm perfectly capable of producing a deuce

1:12:10

so while they were making their decisions we we drove off we finished and drove off to Madison and it's for a

1:12:16

collector and we did this really cool 20-foot wall for them and it's this

1:12:22

custom house for their Sailors and every little floor every little component was

1:12:28

so specially designed it just blew my mind this place awesome yeah I saw some

1:12:33

uh clips of that that that house is a beautiful install really really crazy I've got one I'm working on myself I you

1:12:40

know I got this studio to work large and I've got this 18 foot it's basically it's a wall sized mural it's 18 feet by

1:12:47

night let's say six eight nine I can't do math uh 18 feet by nine nineteen and

1:12:52

I always have to slow down 18 feet holy balls that's huge yeah and it's a

1:12:58

triptych so six feet by nine feet panels so I can put all three together if I

1:13:06

want to work on it all together I but I close the door off to my studio so I have to exit through the other door so

1:13:12

okay at least have a back door I can go out so wow yeah it's a monster so I will

1:13:18

be doing that this month and you know how I like to work large I'm putting that to the test all right that's gonna

1:13:23

be installed before Thanksgiving so I've definitely been cranking on that so ready to go it's all mapped out and

1:13:30

um no pun intended ready to go can't wait to see it all right sir well uh well I think we should keep this kind of

1:13:36

quick we decided out of the blue there you go we're gonna launch a weekend sale so we're putting stuff in our front yard

1:13:43

and inviting people to come so no not going on all right yeah you guys have done those before those are always

1:13:48

pretty successful I feel like if people walk in the door then they're gonna buy something at those shows for sure yeah

1:13:53

I'm actually doing my first Open studio video myself tomorrow night there is a

1:13:59

First Fridays event down here at the Lena Street Lofts where I I have my studio here in Santa Fe and my my little

1:14:05

closet where I'm I'm set up here with my podcast they're not allowed in to see that that's so weird look my kids think

1:14:12

it's super creepy what does he do in there yeah my uh my youngest wanted to draw she was

1:14:19

trying to do some pen and ink stuff and got frustrated at school because they're all all the nibs of course are all blown out at the art class so okay she was in

1:14:26

here doing some drawing so anyway I'm excited about doing that getting some work on the walls and and sweeping the

1:14:32

floors up and opening the doors seeing what happens yeah this first time you're having the public in your studio since

1:14:38

you started up in there yep absolutely it'll be interesting to see anybody anybody comes by all right well good

1:14:44

luck with that and uh catch you next week no rain no rain at your home so you can just have a great weekend and we'll

1:14:51

see you next time all right bye everyone this podcast is brought to you by the

1:14:56

National Association of Independent Artists the website is naiaartists.org also sponsored by

1:15:03

zapplication that's zapplication.org and while you're at it check out Will's website at

1:15:10

willarmstrongart.com and my website at cigarithclass.com be sure to subscribe

1:15:15

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