Spiritual Intelligence/ Michel Delgado

Working Artists! You are not alone! Michel Delgado https://micheldelgado.com/ was raised in Senegal and the impact of a creative mentor shaped his practice as a visionary. Michel's process involves working intuitively to arrive at images without preconceived notions. He strives to step away from his intellect to work viscerally in a manner that will elevate his spiritual intelligence. In his talk, he shares the experience of releasing the grip that substances had on him and how his visionary process evolved.

Join co-hosts Douglas Sigwarth https://www.sigwarthglass.com/ and Will Armstrong http://www.willarmstrongart.com/, who talk with guests about their experiences as professional independent artists.  This week's topics include heightened tensions at art shows, feedback from Cherry Creek and Des Moines, and showing up to sell with COVID.

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Transcript

0:00

foreign

0:11

welcome to the independent artist podcast sponsored by the National Association of Independent Artists also

0:19

sponsored by zapplication I'm will Armstrong and I'm a mixed media artist I'm Douglas sigworth glassblower join

0:26

our conversations with professional working artists Douglas lovely to see your smiling face

0:32

here on the podcast Zoom once again it's been a been a while it's been a minute it has been a minute yeah yeah we've

0:40

been quite busy had a few shows under our belt since the last time we talked um I I kind of bailed on you and I think

0:47

it is maybe one of the cooler things uh that's happened serendipitously with a podcast I was unable to record the

0:54

Preamble I just got way too busy and bogged down and you put together that pearls episode which I think was um well

1:02

uh a pearl of its own I mean I really enjoyed that episode I did too but I just want to say don't ever do that to

1:08

me again okay no I'm just kidding I I promise you that I I likely will

1:14

I I have to say that I would speak into my microphone and I would feel as if the

1:20

two of us are talking I'm putting out all this great energy and then I listen to it back and I'm like super dead so

1:26

I'm like I I need you to feed off of I hear you try doing actual radio where

1:31

you've got nobody and you're just talking into a can and you have no idea who is listening or uh whatever it's

1:37

that's a different Beast as well but it's it's fun I did I thought of you in that I thought geez how the hell did you sit on the the microphone and just talk

1:44

to the world and have no one like talk back to you yeah talk to the wind I would uh get on there and just say

1:51

outlandish [ __ ] and uh see if anybody was listening and then all of a sudden the switchboard would light up be like

1:57

what do you mean the Beatles ruined rock and roll okay I had feel like you

2:02

thought that I don't know that I believe it but it's one of those things I say okay

2:07

well uh what do you want to talk about this week huh you got anything on your mind now it seems like the art show world is

2:14

just sleepy and content is convenient oh my God there's someone lit off a

2:19

freaking bomb and and it's like social media has gone crazy yeah I have uh I've

2:25

read maybe four or five percent of it yeah it's nuts out there well I know I don't want to talk about the big

2:32

elephant in the room because we weren't there and so there really is no way for us to have anything intelligent to say

2:39

about it so that's because you're racist stop it

2:44

the Beatles did ruin rock and roll that's what you're doing right now that's exactly what you're doing which

2:49

board is lighting up we were not there I don't necessarily want to open up that

2:55

can of worms but we can talk about the fact that everybody really seems to be

3:00

on edge whether it's uh our customers I found or uh other artists and and

3:07

typically I'm finding artists to be as on edge as they typically are during the

3:12

doldrums of winter yeah kicking around waiting for the the shows to start in

3:17

the in the spring I did think to myself yesterday online it's like we're all supposed to be hard at work in our

3:23

studio I was supposed to be hard at work in my studio and my nose was stuck in my phone it's like I couldn't stop it was

3:29

like social media is driving me crazy it's getting me all on edge I definitely

3:34

stopped I was I looked at it and was like oh no I can't I can't do that that's a rabbit hole I'm yeah you know I

3:40

talked to you and Ben fry a little bit yesterday through text but I I was uh you know I just I find myself being

3:47

pretty affected by that kind of stuff I had so many commissions to do that I just was like I can't be bogged down in

3:54

this right now or I'll waste my entire week right well all the shows I've done recently the past few since we've talked

4:00

it's been fraught with a lot of tensions I I go to talk to friends and they'll be like I gotta tell you about what just

4:07

happened in my in my booth and it's just well for first of all I wanted to say that a lot of the shows

4:14

over the years that we do doesn't it seem like an event will happen in the country and it gets married to that

4:21

weekend show like for example the year that Amy Winehouse died I'll always remember being at Ann Arbor or when

4:28

marriage equality was passed I'm in downtown Des Moines well this last time

4:34

when I was down in Des Moines Roe v Wade was overturned and that was like a big

4:40

bomb that was just dropped over everyone the opening of the show like that yeah I

4:45

know exactly what you mean being down at jazz fest one year when Prince died then it cast a Paul over the entire uh

4:51

ceremony and there were a lot of celebrations of his music and you could hear different little uh tributes

4:57

popping up and my wife at the time was living in Minneapolis so she had Minneapolis on her sign so everybody

5:04

wanted to talk to us about Prince and I mean we kind of welcomed it it was a good way to kind of mourn together and

5:11

it seemed like a uh celebration of life thing this is a just a depression of

5:16

Rights being taken away I wear my politics and my my uh heart on my sleeve and I know we have a lot of listeners

5:22

who believe other things than what we may may produce but I don't care it's something I'm passionate about so you

5:29

know if they don't believe what I believe [ __ ] them well I have a daughter you have daughters we I mean right women

5:35

make up half of the population and for anyone to not feel affected by that

5:42

decision it I mean I know some people are so passionately against someone having an abortion that don't have an

5:49

abortion you know I mean you don't have to impose that on somebody else right might we had to explain to my

5:57

daughter's uh you know what everybody was so uh up in arms about and they were like what really like so and we're not

6:04

supposed to talk about abortion that's one of those yeah the dinner topics right that people just aren't supposed to talk about but again I don't care I

6:11

loud and proud about it uh women's rights forever and right it's time for the old white men like you and me to shut the hell up well I walked up to a

6:18

friend's Booth I'm not gonna I don't have permission to talk about the specifics so I'm just gonna keep it

6:23

General but their imagery is relating to women's issues about that and it sparked

6:29

a harsh issue in that person's Booth over the weekend of one of our shows

6:35

where they had to get somebody involved to have them stop harassing them about what they believed about abortion and

6:42

we've got this hypercharged situation on the road we've got shootings going on

6:48

it's a different time than what we've ever experienced I'd say before now yep it is and I understand why tensions are

6:55

on edge and clearly you can hear the tensions are on age in my my own voice it's issues that I'm passionate about

7:02

and how do we get involved and fight for the things that we believe in right yeah yeah well I don't have any advice for

7:08

anybody at the shows I just know that we're just talking about what is out there I mean we put ourselves out into

7:15

the public and it is a real thing we're all dealing with from day to day and there's no in my old Studio I I had

7:22

written on the wall don't make small talk with a volatile stranger and I'm like that is that is some good advice

7:28

for for the uh the art buying public out there or Patron people walking around I'm like you don't know me yeah people

7:34

don't necessarily come in and want to push my button I I am the volatile Stranger in that scenario but I just I

7:43

sometimes people come in and they push my buttons and I'm like hey this conversation is over I'm not talking to

7:49

you about that and just move along I mean I don't know yeah I do think we need to put in some foresight into that

7:55

some thinking ahead of time how to react to things and one thing I've come up with is if things get too heated just do

8:03

whatever I need to do to move them along to say whatever you know let's not

8:11

engage in this rhetoric we don't have to agree on stuff we're just an artist here

8:16

to have fun sell our work well we're there to make money that's what we're there for and shake me off my game

8:22

that's the problem yeah you shake me off the game of making money then I'm it it

8:27

makes me angry you're taking food out of my mouth you're taking money out of my pocket I don't right want to talk to

8:34

anybody about politics at an art show and well I don't really have anything political in my booth anyway so right

8:39

right well that's not true I guess I I do we have a whole thing about Native Americans getting their land taken away

8:46

but besides that exercise outside for that one potato it's not political no

8:52

unless you're an ass muscle boom The Beatles ruined rock and roll

8:58

it all comes back to there so Paul is dead I wish

9:04

Hey so uh you're back from the mile high city how was Denver uh it was a

9:09

nightmare to be honest I had a really really hard weekend um I I did fine financially it just was

9:16

a really hard weekend AC went out in my truck on the way down so driving through

9:22

the Badlands from South Dakota and it's 103 no AC uh the alternator blew out on

9:29

the way back while my wife uh contract she contracted covid I woke up on Monday morning with a scratchy throat and took

9:36

a test so so unlike the artists that showed up to Cherry Creek with coven and

9:42

knew about it no what happened there name names name names right now no I'm just kidding don't do that don't name

9:48

names I'll give you their names so there were some artists that showed up and they were neighbors with a guy

9:56

that I know fairly well and and they were hanging around with him and talking the entire weekend and then they dropped

10:02

at the very end of the show oh yeah my wife and I are both positive for covid oh for crying out loud it makes me

10:09

especially hot having tested positive for covid right before artist fear and then doing the right thing doing the

10:14

right thing you took a financial hit you stayed in a hotel had it you put out

10:20

money to stay in a hotel to where we had then you didn't get any money back from the show from selling I mean from

10:27

selling out the show right and I'm not trying to be holier than that but um actually I'm I'm uh I'm definitely holy

10:34

you're holier than yeah yeah definitely holier than that that happened than not seriously and they weren't wearing masks

10:42

they were just like yeah we got covered I'm like well you could like what if somebody walked into your booth with a

10:47

baby yes you know what if somebody walk they're compromised immunocompromised do they get out in the public I mean it's

10:53

just it's unconscionable my 70-something-year-old High School Drama

10:59

teacher who I love dearly showed up to Madison out of the blue and we walk up

11:05

to each other and we're about to give each other this this hug and I stop and I think wait a minute I'm around the

11:11

public I you know I mean like I don't know that I'm like I don't think I should hug you I mean I'm around all

11:16

these people and she's like it's okay it's okay but I mean that's the thing we know we need to be thinking about other

11:21

people right and uh I don't know my wife contracted it at some point it was probably you know if you look at the

11:27

timing of it it was probably more on the way down to the show okay let's blame

11:33

North Platte Nebraska and the weird lady who was coughing in the corner at a crummy Italian restaurant yeah but um

11:38

you know I don't know we don't need to get into all of that but she did wake up Monday morning after a really long

11:44

weekend it was a run phenomenally well they did an excellent job okay but I

11:50

know this isn't a competition well because you know I did Des Moines the weekend before Cherry Creek I just want

11:55

to know what was on Cherry Creek's snack carts because Stephen King took care of

12:01

us did he really did he set full sleeves of thin mint Girl Scout cookies down

12:07

every half hour on their wagons we had Girl Scout cookies the entire weekend so

12:12

take that Cherry Creek you know what I don't want to drop a hammer on you Doug go ahead

12:17

jalapeno Cheetos are you kidding that it oh yeah but then

12:23

it's hot and your mouth is on I don't know I I think that I think the uh I

12:28

think I think that girl scout cookies were better but uh

12:34

all right no it was uh they take great care of you and they make sure you're hydrated yeah they send people around

12:40

and really really do a good job of making us feel appreciated yeah I think both of those shows are some of the best

12:46

in the business you got Cherry Creek and Des Moines and and Stephen King and Tara and Amy curly there they they handle

12:53

things well uh they're everything from people with covid to uh older folks

13:00

passing out on the street they they had to handle it all yeah uh hats off to them for another great weekend hey so

13:06

you said you had a big commission earlier that are commissions you've been working on what's what's you doing there what's going on with that do you do much

13:13

commission work um yeah I would say so yeah yeah all right so here's how I do commission work

13:18

okay somebody places an order with me and I get really excited about the order and

13:24

then I give them an impossibly long lead time on when it's due like uh it's I'm

13:29

not gonna be able to do it and then I quote like my last show of the year or something like that or Christmas and

13:35

then uh that date comes rolling around and then uh right around the time that's

13:41

due maybe the day of or the day after it's due maybe a couple days before yeah I haven't started it and then I will

13:48

email my client and say it's looking awesome and they get really excited and then I'm

13:54

like okay now I have to start the piece and then it takes me longer than I think and then I just give them a bunch of

14:00

Lies until I finally have a panic attack and stay up all night and finish the painting okay this sounds that's how I

14:07

work this sounds like a college thesis being written now you know what I mean I've never written a college thesis but

14:13

I've done plenty of graphic design um back like prior to like even Quark

14:18

Express uh graphic design things and like with razor blades and I've got enough scar tissue in my fingertips to

14:25

to prove it it's I am I am a procrastinator yeah and like Clifton had

14:31

posted something that really rang Clifton Henry one of our former guests posted something on Instagram and it

14:38

really rang home to me it was like when you procrastinate your only option is

14:44

the consequence and I'm like okay oh okay yeah yes

14:50

thanks Cliff I appreciate that thanks Dad yeah right but uh you need that back

14:59

against the wall you need feet to the fire area to get those commissions done or what maybe I just hate commissions

15:05

yeah I mean I I just hate them I mean I appreciate them we're like oh it made the show better and it's like I don't

15:11

know it just it's up there pain in the ass I just hate them the closest I can relate it to for me is when we did

15:17

wholesale orders when you take orders for glass and then you have to fill the orders it's like it's like every piece I

15:24

analyze I go it's not exactly what they wanted it's not this size it's not the right color and then I just hate it I

15:30

hate it the whole process so we just got out of the whole wholesale game good for you um I was talking to a good friend of

15:35

mine who actually is thinking about just halting commissions I'm not taking commissions on and sending an email out

15:42

to like her 10 super good collectors and being like look I'm sending an email out this week

15:49

saying commissions are closed until 2024. I'm just not doing them because

15:55

they have been such a hassle also people have been so on edge yeah it's been uh

16:00

it's been really challenging well another story that I mean to kind of take us back to the challenges is I

16:07

talked to an artist's friend on the road at one of the shows and this artist literally had a bully in their Booth

16:14

saying I want you to make this for me the artist says I don't do that that's not in my it's like not in my repertoire

16:20

and the person really felt like they could bully their way into getting what

16:25

they wanted in front of a booth full of people kept saying over and over nope

16:31

but you do this so you can do that right why wouldn't you do it and wouldn't take no for an answer and it's like come on

16:39

people yeah I know how to make them take no for an answer I you know at that point you just put up okay yeah

16:44

absolutely it's it's 75 000 really like okay well that's good that's but that means you know how about that they've

16:50

shared this artist off of their game and maybe this is good advice for some people who don't even know how to avoid that I'd say here's my card I talk about

16:57

all commissions or anything special that I don't have in the booth right now on

17:03

the phone at a later date and then get them the heck out so you can focus on what you have right there and now or hey

17:09

I've got some great ideas here's my card contact me after the show then that way after the show they can find out that

17:16

your big idea is for them to go [ __ ] themselves

17:24

show them what they've won all right yeah don't make small talk with a volatile stranger so I had a couple of

17:31

interesting interactions over the weekend in Cherry Creek that I thought I'd mention

17:36

um one was with my next door neighbor he had a big double Booth uh glossy work he

17:42

was doing very well with it he had a new technique it was kind of the anti-dollon but it was also I think Dolan would

17:48

would definitely Ali Marie would definitely appreciate it okay he would sell a bunch of paintings like three or

17:54

four paintings they were fairly reasonably priced and then he'd go to wrap them up and need a minute to wrap

18:00

him up he had a ribbon like a separation ribbon that he'd pull out from one wall to the next and close his Booth okay and

18:09

he was right there on display and somebody coming hey can I come in uh not right now I'm closed for for about five

18:14

or ten minutes while I wrap up these paintings I'll be right with you or it's like at Home Depot when they shut down

18:20

the aisles so that they can move no I can't think you're I get what

18:25

you're saying but it it created this kind of excitement for his his work they're like oh no I get that too like

18:31

like a red carpet kind of deal like this is this is now something very exciting is happening and exactly people

18:37

interested and then he'd also treat that with with like high-end customers that are looking at Big paintings or he

18:43

didn't want like he had his little dog in his booth and he couldn't talk to people about the dog if he's wanting to talk to somebody about a huge commission

18:50

or a huge painting or something so I don't know I just thought that was interesting it's not something I'm going to do but it works for him

18:56

I can see how it would it would when the crowd has something to like be like voyeurs about like what's happening in

19:02

there suddenly the demand gets triggered and it's like oh he sold that piece okay now this piece over here looks even more

19:09

attractive to me because he's selling stuff you know like the Red Dot used to do that if he had a booth full of red

19:15

dots suddenly the non-dotted pieces became like I've got to get this before it's gone exactly exactly so I don't

19:22

know I I didn't think that it would work for me and I didn't want to do it and I'm not tempted to do it but I did think

19:28

it was kind of cool and it definitely worked for him so that's cool that's interesting yeah uh the other one that I

19:34

wanted to mention is uh when an artist buys your work like that that just I

19:40

mean I'm just not sure doing what we do that anything feels as good as that so oh um I don't know I just I really

19:47

appreciate that when another artist appreciates your work and comes in and buys a piece yeah no I totally get that

19:55

too because I I feel sometimes like I think it is common for a lot of us out

20:01

there to feel I don't know a little bit insecure like what do people think about your work or whatever and posture

20:08

syndrome yeah the Imposter syndrome absolutely like even if somebody says

20:13

something which is flattering and nice the fact that they're ponying up the money and want to live with it is right

20:19

always the highest form of flattery for sure and that they they don't think you're a

20:25

jerk you know like like we all think we are I don't know maybe I am maybe it's

20:32

okay jerk you are you are stepping into that role that role that's been scripted

20:38

it's all right hey you know uh you were talking

20:44

um about Dolan a minute ago and I you know the last episode that we aired with Dolan and Ali Marie I kind of did a

20:51

clumsy introduction to Michelle Delgado who were airing our interview today with

20:56

him and I tried to say that there was kind of like

21:02

the flip side of Dolan and I did a clumsy way of explaining what I meant by

21:07

that and I guess you know after thinking a little bit more about it there's something about Michelle that is he

21:15

works in such a visceral way such a meditative spiritual kind of way that is

21:22

not even as I explain it right now I'm stumbling I I am with you on that and I

21:28

don't think what you did was particularly clumsy but I feel like with Dolan and Ellie Marie you have what you

21:35

like is what you get what you've shown us was what you like is what you get what you like of me is what you're going

21:40

to get more of whereas Michelle I've always found his work is like what you see is what you get it's me and it's

21:46

fine it's like this is this is him this is who he is and and I mean and that is very much who Dolan and Ali Marie are as

21:53

well but it's just a different business model it's just like he's very he's more

21:58

fluid and less considered fluid is is a good way to say it because it's so

22:03

process oriented he says that visions and and work come out of him that he doesn't have any kind of a preconceived

22:10

notion too it's kind of like it's a process for him and I feel like the the

22:15

difference between what I experience from hearing the story with Dolan and Ali Marie is they're very meticulous

22:22

about planning and planning what they're going to make next and and what their

22:28

next kind of design or their series might be where Michelle is he goes to an

22:35

internal place and says okay and it gets real quiet and says what next and just

22:41

lets it kind of like come out and so I I kind of like that we have the ability on

22:47

this on this podcast to talk to so many different people who work in so many different ways yeah I love that too and

22:54

I think that brings us right to our talk Douglas I think we should get down into it uh one of the things that I like

22:59

about our show so much is that you tell me who you're going to talk to and I'm like oh and I get really jealous and I'm

23:05

like oh man but then you know I hear the talk and I hear things that I I might not necessarily have asked and I get to

23:12

just sit back and be a fan so sit back and be a fan with me and let's hear Michelle Delgado I I feel the same way I

23:19

felt the same way about all of your talks so yes here he is Michelle Delgado from Chicago Illinois

23:26

this episode of The Independent artist podcast is brought to you by zap the digital application service where

23:32

artists and art festivals connect hey well do you remember the old way of doing these applications with red dots

23:38

on the slides and self-addressed stamped envelopes do you uh still have a rotary phone Douglas no I don't remember that

23:46

well I just like that they were with us back then when we made the switch from analog to digital it's a huge switch and

23:53

now zap is the industry standard and they're always creating features that make our lives easier too so I do like

23:59

what zap does and I do like that most of the shows I apply to are ons application

24:04

exactly so I personally appreciate what zap is doing and thanks for not making us reinvent the wheel every single week

24:11

like we used to have to do Michelle welcome to the podcast thanks for joining me today and thank you Douglas

24:17

for having me I have to say I'm a little star struck I've been an admirer of your

24:22

work for quite a long time and I've seen you out there on the road and you've kind of been on my radar since we

24:29

started this project I wanted to have a chance to talk to you oh thanks thanks yeah if you friend of mine had told me a

24:36

lot about what you guys do and it's meaningful so I'm always

24:41

open you know for things are meaningful yeah yeah totally well you kind of you

24:47

kind of came full circle for me recently when I was looking into art in the Pearl

24:53

and I noticed that you were a juror for that yes yeah yeah how did that experience go for you what was that

25:00

process like yeah I mean I really enjoy it because he helped me to Broad my view

25:06

in variety of different work because I don't zoom in into a lot of work and in

25:13

general so this was a very good uh experiment for me I enjoy it and the

25:19

people was putting these things together was very helpful and then I was able to

25:25

look at a lot of work it was a great experience for sure it is it kind of

25:30

overwhelming when it gets down to like measuring people or categorizing them

25:35

side by side and rating them and building a show that way or what was that like yeah for sure for sure because

25:43

I mean he eats so much moving Parts you know and uh you also don't have a lot of

25:50

time to digest what you're looking at and then you have to really go back and

25:58

then rely on your and what what resonate to you for me a work has to be able to touch me if we

26:06

find a way to touch me then and become more attentive and so from there I I try

26:12

to trust my judgment it's on point that that Sparks a question in my mind

26:18

because what I was reading about you was you describe yourself as a Visionary artist so if you say that the work has

26:25

to touch you in a certain way does that kind of resonate with how you work I mean having that emotional connection to

26:31

the work yeah yeah that's been like that you know that's how I read best what I

26:38

do that's how I've been approaching my work uh for

26:43

years and I Rely totally on that if the work doesn't touch me there is no way I

26:50

can put it out into the world because it's an experience and from this

26:56

experience a lot of variety of different things inside of me really start barking

27:02

and then day four I kind of know I'm up to something really good what does that mean to you to be

27:09

Visionary when you're working that's a good question uh when I came to this

27:15

country I didn't quite know where I fit you know so that was very interesting

27:21

because then you have all this genre of work abstract uh being a self-store so

27:28

it's Outsider it's naive and none of those things I can really relate to

27:34

where I belong so as a Visionary artist for me it's just being a more internal

27:42

the dialogue you have with your reality and the reality that you're facing every

27:49

day so now how can you go inside of that and start conveying image based on some

27:57

experience so that's that's the Visionary it's something that you envision intuitively or emotionally and

28:05

then you arrive to something it's tangible so when you put my work next to

28:10

all this genre I talked about Visionary Outsider there is an intuitive

28:16

awareness to it was interesting like you know some of the biggest institution had

28:22

approached me I mean I tried to introduce them to my work and then uh when they come up wet and they were

28:29

saying to me you know I'm not an outsider because I'm a little bit too sophisticated it was a it was a

28:35

compliment in a curse right so are you saying that if I understand you correctly that this the way you work it

28:43

comes from an internal place where you kind of start without preconceived

28:49

notions but you you settle in and Visions for your artwork come to you

28:56

um and come out of you that you yeah had planned ahead of time that's exactly that because it's all triggered by the

29:03

reality then you and I experience every day and then I just experience it in a

29:09

different level for me that's where I know how to read what's coming next so

29:16

most everything I do do that you see in two-dimensional those images they're not

29:22

in my head the experiences inside of me now the challenge is how can I use that

29:29

experience to arrive to an image I never see before and that's been like that for

29:36

over 30 something years but for me these this signal they are here to teach me to

29:45

tell me to show me something and then when I can connect with that with my

29:52

hand and my material then I arrive to something now I'm seeing it oh I see

29:59

like the third eye yeah there you go it says something it's not just sitting there or you're putting there you have

30:05

to cultivate that to order to be able to relate to it yes and then to use it and

30:12

and in a meaningful way now from there I can kind of you know work into the

30:18

composition with Direction I want to go with it and then so on and so forth I do

30:23

the majority of the world that I resonate really well I had brought those

30:29

catalysts for me of understanding who am I in this reality where am I feeling

30:36

what am I learning how am I growing spiritually and if those work are done

30:43

and I put them into the world and another human connect with that that's success to me

30:51

what does what does that mean to you when you talk about that spiritual side of it yeah that's actually for me I

30:59

always been interested in all variety of different spiritual practice I don't

31:05

have one religion or things then I follow but the world of spirituality

31:11

interests me now I add another layer to it I always

31:17

been interested of things they are not obvious and if they're not obvious you

31:24

open a huge amount of creative opportunity for me so all of those

31:29

things they they they Spirit they are things that they hit you from different

31:35

angle and then you build a relationship with that he helps you to ground you he helps

31:41

you to understand better yourself that you're developing as a person as an artist as a Creator and then so on and

31:49

so forth and now you have to also go back a little bit to the culture I grew

31:54

up with and and where was that I where where do you come from what was home originally yeah I'm originally from

32:00

Senegal in in West Africa I was born there and I grew up in that environment

32:07

and that environment it's intense very intense and in a lot of ways

32:13

describing her tell me about it yeah creatively emotionally mentally the terrain it's

32:20

intense but there is something very rich who hates you constantly all the time

32:27

for you to stay on your toe creatively to order to exist in that environment

32:32

you have to be creative in every level how you make your food how you sleep how

32:39

you live in that terrain how you function in that reality because you don't have a lot of Resource number one

32:46

number two everything you need it's already there so you have to kind of

32:54

constantly adjust to these things and if you were born there that's become your reality

33:00

so for me being around all variety of

33:05

different color different philosophy different intensity of just getting your

33:12

means you know that stuff you have to adapt quick how so it's just you know

33:19

the resource that we have and and other environment different than what you have

33:24

over there that's the huge gap right there you know and then from there you

33:30

don't have other places to to pick and choose that's what you work you know

33:35

it's like you know if you want to make your bed you don't just go and then get a all

33:44

seven different grade of different choices mattress wise or you have right

33:49

it's a whole different way of life we're here yeah we've got it's so product driven and capitalism driven where it's

33:57

all about what you can buy and what you own and yeah yeah it's a simple but Rich

34:04

interesting and intense if you choose to adapt to it it's how we navigate those

34:11

Nuance as each individual you know and then for me those things had uh

34:18

Implement a huge amount of creativity internally for me because I constantly

34:24

have to figure things out question things and then so on and so forth so over the year it just kind of

34:31

leaked more inside of my being how the person then I become okay it really

34:39

shaped you as an artist and and kind of forming this Visionary way of working

34:46

and thinking and being yeah that's that's uh that was huge you know that

34:52

was so the Visionary aspect of what you're describing does it extend beyond

34:57

just being an artist in your work is it kind of how you approach life in general overall because I mean this this world

35:04

has become little bit too overrated or overused because I mean it's just like

35:10

how you can find the dialogue between your emotion your intellect and your

35:16

being as a person to have an arrival into this reality that you try to

35:22

negotiate with every day you learn how to work with other elements than just

35:28

like this intellectual part of uh academic how to make art or how to draw

35:34

a donkey or whatever [ __ ] that is you know right right whatever the design

35:39

principles or the design laws that are dictated to we will just

35:45

follow a formula exactly I mean I think so we're coming to a same endpoint

35:51

whatever yeah so when you uh came to the US and

35:56

you you mentioned earlier there was a feeling of where do I fit so do you feel

36:01

like how you were kind of conditioned from childhood to kind of react to

36:08

things in a Visionary sort of way that we're such a different culture so maybe

36:13

culturally you felt like you didn't fit but then also how people think here and

36:19

how people like measure things like measure success or measure materials or all that it's like a whole different way

36:26

of life I mean I think this Outsider it done on me here it happens Way Way Back

36:33

growing up I I'm from um experience okay I live in an environment my parents they

36:40

were all the ways between like the seven kids uh we we seven I'm the fifth one so

36:47

I always had it to reconfind where I fit or where I belong and that's like uh

36:54

this this chain who constantly follow me so it was not Florence to me and then

37:01

when it comes to Art here it's like people so what do you do first things

37:06

people generally know it's abstract or realistic or but you know all of those

37:12

things I was not able to relate because I don't know how to do them now how can I tell you about what I do

37:20

so let me show you what I do so it was always this excess of like reconfinding

37:27

where I belong where I where I'm gonna fit and then eventually you just let the

37:33

work and then your presence and your trusting who you are to emanate that

37:39

then it brings a sense of Attraction and then then it's approachable for me the

37:45

structure of academic art was really it was really confusing because growing up

37:51

in Senegal the French had brought this very strong ideas of like if you don't

37:58

know how to draw you never want to be an artist and that was one of the biggest [ __ ] a lot of these people had get

38:05

stuck over there inside of their culture they have one of the most creative and

38:10

intense and interesting stuff they just let it down and then they start following that and we were constantly

38:16

fighting with that aesthetic has to be beautiful versus something is visible right ah yeah okay so when you left

38:26

Senegal was it to pursue a career as an artist no I was just trying I I had to

38:32

get out of the continent you know because uh but it was beautiful uh I

38:38

grew up in an incredible environment I I really loved that but you always long

38:44

for something better higher maybe it's out there maybe it's a delusion maybe

38:49

it's not but I needed to get out I needed to get out okay so what about

38:54

pardon my ignorance but what were you experiencing there that you needed to

38:59

leave yeah it's the number one is the limitation I thinks what I accomplished here I would have never been able to do

39:07

that in Africa or in Europe I was in Paris for quite some time I was kind dependent artist uh those things like

39:15

over there you know you would create all of this this this world or this

39:20

experience visually on artistics form people would just come in and join them and then move on which was very good

39:27

because I was very clear the people I grew up with make sure are it's never

39:34

about economic they look at Art there is no money attached to it okay yeah I

39:40

would tell you there is a strong value attached to it so if you find your way

39:46

you will get paid for what you do so maybe not there I say so this was what

39:53

you wanted to do with your life you wanted to devote your life to this but you knew that you needed to be somewhere

39:59

else in the world that you could yeah you know you could fund your life by getting paid yeah because because I

40:05

never had any desire about anything in my life than just being an artist really

40:12

I was very clear by the time I was 14 this is what I wanted to do and that's

40:18

how that came about I can tell you about it if you're interested of it absolutely yeah how did you come to that very clear

40:24

you know for me I mean I grew up my mom she was an artist she works with a lot

40:29

of fabric and textile and sewing and then I grew up in an environment who is

40:34

very creative around me but it was a lot of Craftsmen so one day I stumbled into

40:40

this yard and by my curiosity I connect with three

40:45

people I have still today I have never seen a masterpiece like that these

40:51

people they were they were healer they were puppet maker they were stage artists they were highly intelligent and

40:59

they would create ours can be and and movement or two-dimensional with nothing

41:07

really and they were living inside of this this place and that was where I really connected

41:15

when I met like two of them I become really close to them I was pretty clear this is what I want to have this is what

41:22

I'm gonna ex how I'm gonna get this okay so their example really was what you

41:27

kind of got it it became really clear and focused that that's what you wanted with your life yes yeah and uh because

41:37

uh or my surrounding was not uh art no you can't do that yeah it's not that's

41:43

the dead exit don't go there but with these people they were not only making art they were leaving something was

41:50

beyond anything I ever face and then I follow them like dogs you know I was young I

41:59

was just like I would go there every Wednesday after I stumble into it they were projecting a lot of film and then

42:06

has the things start developing then I start wandering inside of these things where this guy was creating they were

42:13

nothing like what I saw in school what uh the French colony was trying to embed

42:20

inside my brain these uh was a things how they take their life and everything

42:27

was in that spirituality creativity death intelligence and then create something was like whoa it just hits you

42:35

yeah and it's interesting this is how these people are living this is the

42:40

object of every day how they put them together it becomes a shrine and all of

42:46

those African they were kind of trying to follow nice tapestry you know trying

42:52

to draw with so much pain perfection and the art was already in there

42:59

for me that was this is what interested me so that's

43:04

what I told you the magnitude of what I encounter in that little village was incredible it sounds like a real a depth

43:11

of something that you just had never imagined and I've talked to a lot of different artists and you know

43:18

we aren't necessarily this homogeneous group where we all have the exact same

43:23

kind of approach and you know you have some artists who are it's like their job and you have some artists where it's

43:31

like a way of life and it really sounds to me that this integration of kind of the spirituality

43:37

and creativity it's more of artists it doesn't describe job it describes who

43:46

you are at your core that's what it feels like from this interaction with

43:51

these people it was like I don't know where it's going but I just have to follow this path

43:57

sure yeah I mean I think so that's what creates this this different uh realness

44:04

I mean I think there's some great artists I would always admire uh someone's craftsmanship your intuitive

44:13

creativity that's what hits me it's not coming from your intellect it comes from

44:20

another place you're trying every day to figure it out and if you find some people to support you with that

44:26

that's even much more beautiful you know yeah so your first your first

44:33

step out of Seneca was to Paris you said you went to Paris first thing yeah yeah

44:38

I went to Paris it was a very strong desire to go there because you always thinks you know the grass is green on

44:45

the other side right until you arrive there and by the time

44:50

I get there off he was dark okay everything just kind of

44:57

blew up and for me I uh everything just completely blew up

45:03

and blow up today I can look at it in a better way I I went in a deep end and a

45:10

very dark addiction um you know I was an ironic addict I

45:15

went for about at least 11 years okay and then and that

45:22

was I encountered a lot of crazy stuff okay doing that losing work selling work

45:28

I mean figuring things out but uh then you you grow out of that I was very

45:34

lucky I found some great people from time to time who had helped me and see

45:40

some good in me and then they send me to the right direction so that's from there I end up working in one of the biggest

45:47

agency in Paris and in commercial art and that was a nice learning curve for

45:53

me so that period of time that period of of that dark period of addiction was

45:59

that all in in Paris yeah he started intensifying over there

46:06

in an I kind of lose control over that but I was making work I was making some really dark work interesting and then I

46:13

remember you know going and working in this agency what everybody was like talked up was very professional I was

46:21

learning and developing another skill to merge those two world together and

46:28

then me so that was that was uh that was a really good he was a good savior

46:34

I appreciate you sharing that really that's really revealing personal thing to share addiction is something a lot of

46:42

people battle and it's something a lot of artists in our industry you know deal

46:47

with it kind of goes hand in hand with being this Ultra creative soul and

46:54

whatever it serves to do to open our eyes to protect us from Pain whatever

47:02

it's function yeah you know what I mean it kind of seems to settle in on us creative types pretty pretty readily so

47:10

how did that work for you how did that addiction with being an artist how did

47:17

that go together um I think you know I I'm very grateful

47:24

for what those substance have done for me because they probably opened something I was not able to to uh uh

47:33

access okay but then I was uh it was dangerous because I could have lost my

47:40

life there too but I walked away with something very tangible in my life and

47:46

these other things who happen then a lot of artists have this huge delusion

47:51

pretty much today I can say that because I've been one of them then if you take more dope if you drink more your

47:57

creativity gets you know the word I believe creativity comes from the

48:02

Creator and for me those substance was cutting me off from the Creator from

48:09

something higher than me and I was too scared or I was too insecure to to allow

48:17

that to grow so then I speed it up and then I speed it up a lot of my friend

48:23

didn't make it they were great artists so they were whatever is you know uh great actor but they never made it but

48:29

so now when you come back to these things that you realize the work that you do it's not embedded with that

48:36

people feel that sincerity into your work I hear you there you know yeah

48:42

um is there that that fear obviously there had to be the realization at many

48:47

points along the way until you were able to get clean of if I keep down this path I will lose my life

48:54

and then but then so you make the decision to save your life but then so much of your life is being an artist and

49:04

there's you've a lot of folks as you say have married this idea that to be a good artist you need the substance to help

49:11

you open up so yeah that period Then of finding yourself as an artist without substances

49:19

what was that like for you uh it was challenging because I had it to find

49:25

first the balance and in this being than I am you know learning to grow learning

49:30

to to own your feelings learning to own your challenge into your insecurity and

49:36

learning to own all of those things and then you can today sit down and laugh about it paint about it diagnosed about

49:43

it trying to figure it out I mean it's a it's a huge reward but it was not easy

49:51

to just be comfortable in the middle of the night just working trying to figure things out and there was no nothing

49:58

there you know than yourself and you trying to access something greater

50:04

bigger than you than I just talked about earlier right and then you arrive to this world it's like wow this filming

50:10

with great joy to be to be to get to the that place and being present with whatever discoveries come to you yeah

50:18

had to be like that first kind of a reward that that kind of kept you

50:23

propelling forward away from that to have you know what I mean to stay clean and to and to feel good about it yeah

50:30

and that's that's what you know it was not only my making other people are helping me all people I had encountered

50:38

my journey and then they they always thought there was something good inside

50:43

of you I'm gonna help you to find it I'm gonna help you to show that and then uh

50:49

they they were not trying to clone me they were just trying to there is another way because if you have this

50:57

type of talent we want you to stay here longer and ideas for you as well so

51:03

those things was very energizing and then it becomes possible to I don't use

51:10

any substance for many many years or almost 29 years I

51:16

have a daughter uh so I've become like a full-grown person

51:22

well tell me about that daughter of yours I know that yeah for you know her younger years she was your focus she was

51:31

your everything yeah yeah she was and she still is because it's interesting I

51:37

I was about 13 or 14. I had this incredible vision and then I'm gonna

51:42

have a daughter just like Malika she be a mixed race I'll be living in an island

51:49

in a beer painter and when Malika arrives all of these things was in my

51:54

reality really yeah so that Vision was an actual like looking forward in the

52:00

future and it all came came to fruition yeah yeah it was surreal when that happened there it is this little pearly

52:08

mixed girl was like just totally alive and then change the trajectory of my

52:13

life to develop a relationship iei treasure you know she becomes my temple

52:19

she becomes my driving force and uh yeah I mean I tell you that's the great

52:26

feeling to be a dad I love this woman and she go out to become an incredible

52:31

person it's so it's so inspiring you know and then we did Art we travel together and

52:38

she's an artist no no she's a nurse uh yeah but when she

52:44

was young when she was little we did a lot of art together I exposed her to a

52:49

lot of variety of different work and then how to view work items will touch

52:55

you and it was a very nice to bring someone inside of that world and then

53:01

yeah be with her inside of the with all part of the journey yeah I mean to have

53:07

that I mean this happens for a lot of us when we become parents and we realize the

53:12

world isn't all about us and we can we can flip the role a bit and we can dote

53:18

on them and and get them to where they need to be self-actualized and whatever I mean it

53:24

really changes the whole trajectory of a lot of Our Lives yes for sure no it is

53:31

uh it is something very doubtful I think the artists need those type of wake up call because I tell you you know we very

53:38

infantilize you know artists we we we sometimes we're so childish inside you

53:45

know um we we throw tantrum I you know we call in this black and white thinking we

53:52

very self-centered very just that's just the reality it is you know the soon that

53:57

we have a bad show our whole world crumbling you know it's like walking to

54:04

your mood and tell you something you know you're all like on fire it's like that's very infantilized but when you

54:11

have kids there is the mirror you know just you realize man how can I grow out

54:16

of this because being an artist it's it's a great gift for Humanity but serve

54:22

that with with purpose with strengths get your [ __ ] together

54:28

yeah yeah for sure all right so now tell me about that opportunity that you had

54:35

in Paris that that job that allowed you to kind of merge the two realities that

54:42

you said was like a savior for you yeah it was a it was uh it's still I believe

54:47

today they're still there it's one of the biggest commercial agency in Paris so the academic Park was that for me to

54:55

be introduced to a world where there's a creative people yeah they will show up

55:01

they were they have a task they have a deadline they they keep a budget they

55:08

keep a staff they it's an order that's that structure that way these people

55:13

they went to school to learn this that was like all new to me because I what I

55:19

learn was totally out there you know so this was more like tangible you know

55:26

some of them went to graphic art school some of them went to Commercial Art or

55:31

whatever that is so that academic part started waking up inside of me so it was

55:36

for me to be exposed to that was really good because I was able to merge where I

55:42

came from and who am I made I didn't have this opportunity for me to

55:48

fermentize about going to our school it was no possible I didn't have the means

55:53

and I was never was exposed to it and then I think yeah the universal I never

55:59

went that route I never went to any Art School whatsoever and if I were to say

56:05

that it would mess up everything I know you had that knowing in you that you felt like if you went that route that it

56:12

would maybe try and dampen that that creative spirit that that you harnessed

56:18

over the years yeah for sure now I'm much confident about it before I I was

56:24

having some doubt about it because like I told you you know I from I come from a

56:30

very strong influence of a French culture yes aesthetic of beauty you know

56:36

how it is how draw pain perfectly and then do all of these things but uh

56:42

should Aina was never able to resonate with it so for me to keep the work then

56:48

I liked it and I love to experiment today I'm kind of full grown about it I

56:53

feel very confident about it it's not about aesthetic it's it's about

56:58

something else and that stuff you you can make this [ __ ] up either it's there

57:05

or it's not there and the people who support you they feel the same so tell me about

57:13

coming to the U.S and then working as a as an independent artist in that period

57:19

of time and and how did that look yeah oh boy I tell you I get inside of this

57:27

game the wrong way really how do you mean oh my God I was uh I was not very

57:33

easily teachable I just thought like uh looking back it was a lot to learn and

57:42

but the things is uh around this little um this group it was so much different

57:50

things then I was not relating to people say oh try this you should do it this

57:55

way you should go that way you should do it this way but one thing to kind of really helped

58:00

me I paid attention yeah you know I I appear to not but I can see a lot of

58:07

things okay so that's how I learn I'm very shy about asking a question okay I

58:13

bet I am very attentive so I had it to to make all of those mistakes to really

58:20

learn what worked belong where how you present the work you know what show to

58:26

go to and then your connection there's the people great friend I met I I was

58:31

able to get a lot of good Insight from them and uh some I didn't listen some didn't work for me but I I figured a

58:39

rope relatively quickly and then now it was to get in into the show I didn't know how to apply I was I was over doing

58:47

it when you say show are we talking like the outdoor Festival this is like yeah

58:52

once a lot of us know yeah exactly yeah I didn't know how to I would get

58:59

rejected left and right and some other peers will see my world map your work is really good but so why what the hell I'm

59:07

not getting inside of the show and then progressively by being more attentive I

59:12

start putting more attention how to apply where to apply how to to adjust

59:19

the work it was it was just too intense it was too all over the place okay and

59:26

so that little normality I I fighted for a long time well I stay behind for a

59:32

long time but then he came to me then I felt like I can learn this curve and I

59:39

was open to to it but the funny the the interesting things going back to

59:44

remember I I grew up in an environment the the power of economic was never part

59:49

of the game yeah you never part right you know so that part I didn't quite

59:55

understand that pretty well but then I didn't have any Plan B this is it for me

1:00:01

so I had to find a way to make it happen so do you do you feel like that initial

1:00:08

um how to make your work something that you can get paid for and support yourself on let that learning curve was

1:00:16

was quite foreign to what you were used to because for you you weren't creating

1:00:21

the work to have a desired end your work was about from this internal connection

1:00:29

to the work it wasn't product driven did you feel like getting into this kind of

1:00:34

a setting where you represent yourself on the street under a tent talking to customers that that was a bit of a shift

1:00:41

that was was pretty foreign to what you're used to uh yeah yeah for sure though because

1:00:48

there is a tame ability you know I had it to learn there is some work they

1:00:54

don't belong there I mean I had a good audience people love to work and there was something very

1:01:02

good to entertain but I would just walked away with nothing so over the year I had to adjust the light I had to

1:01:10

adjust the volume my work was too loud was too intense so that belonged to

1:01:15

another place so that's how I was able to sort it out and then to loud the the

1:01:22

Right audience to come and support me and then some people you know some patreons that they wanted the the really

1:01:30

the better it was you know and those are the people who are carrying me and supports the work for me to get this far

1:01:37

because uh this was an experiment and I'm still experimenting it but uh I'm

1:01:44

trying to go to a different direction what I'm trying to do the things that I

1:01:50

like about these venues they are this this masses of Soul who comes were

1:01:57

totally threatening by institution Gallery Museum all kinds of stuff they

1:02:04

don't know how to be in front of Art in an artist so it's it's to us to trying

1:02:11

to warm that connection with them but I'm not an educator I'm not here to

1:02:16

waste my time either you know but there is a warmth to that the people

1:02:22

wow what is this what can I sow it's overwhelmed them you just like to to

1:02:28

chip these things away to just think you know come in you know just stay look at

1:02:34

the world be with us you know what does that say to you we'll stay with it you know I was I was experiencing that as I

1:02:40

was getting ready for our talk and I was looking over the images from your site and from Instagram

1:02:46

and I first was looking at it from kind of a heady place oh what's he trying to

1:02:51

say here and I'm like you know I would look and I would I would be like my head wasn't wasn't deciphering it but then

1:02:59

something started to hit me in regions like my heart or in my chest

1:03:05

or my stomach and I'm like I'm feeling his work and then as I read more about you and was reading on your process

1:03:13

then I thought I understand the work here as opposed to here and and it just

1:03:21

it like hit me like a ton of bricks yeah so I love that that if you you encourage or you know the people walking through

1:03:28

to just be with the work and let it speak to them yeah and then just that Jester he brings

1:03:36

what you bring the best of me he bring the best of them there is no insecurity

1:03:42

they don't have to feel dumb because they don't understand I tell you Douglas I I do a lot of work I don't understand

1:03:48

it and I don't give a [ __ ] but I know there is something there I have to go

1:03:55

back to and more I go back to then more I understand it so how can this stranger

1:04:02

just pass by and supposed to get everything and then if they can get everything they start uh glue you with

1:04:10

someone else another master or another artist or you know decent or you

1:04:15

remember of that all of that dialogue needs to get out for them to really be

1:04:20

with something totally new and different and in the end if they can just say

1:04:26

thank you shake my hand or just say you know thanks for this experience because

1:04:32

the way that we had approached art has been really [ __ ] up being young I

1:04:38

don't know if you remember that but I used to hate that you will go to some uh

1:04:44

fear how would you call that uh they feel oh no you know like your school

1:04:49

will take you to a day trip or a field trip right a field trip yeah so you will go today they will take you

1:04:56

to the museum I mean these people would dictate the [ __ ] out of your mind to sit down here and to look at this [ __ ]

1:05:03

painting who doesn't have nothing for two hours where this [ __ ] comes from to

1:05:09

look at this stuff so you walked away from that with those ideas you gotta

1:05:16

create now this intellect because it's a time it's like all of this stuff but I

1:05:22

don't feel this this van Gogh Three Little Flower I just don't I want to get

1:05:28

out of here well I mean there is the element of uh it being a possession a

1:05:34

valuable possession that hung on a church wall or a King's Castle or

1:05:40

something that was to dictate wealth and Status it really wasn't about a way of

1:05:46

life it wasn't about an emotional connection um it wasn't about a true spirituality

1:05:52

it was about control and power those sorts of things you're talking about wouldn't you say yeah because the the

1:05:59

things is like you create uh some kind of under layer of like if you don't get

1:06:05

this you don't you're not scared so yeah you don't you know but you know in this

1:06:12

little being you try to figure all of these things well you know when you're gonna go inside to things to bombard you

1:06:19

are these are one thing she gonna do is pretend the other things you don't know how to

1:06:25

be inside on front of those work well let someone just show you there is

1:06:30

another way to to to to to to have a reciprocity of of connection with these

1:06:36

things often when people walked into the boat you know what I have tendency to tell them is you know when they look at

1:06:43

the world they try and see their mind start wondering you know what is these things mean what is that it just changes

1:06:49

just cheer now listen to this film

1:06:54

listen to this painting what this painting is triggering inside of you well then you arrive to A lot of variety

1:07:02

of enhancement because for me I'm interested Douglas to make the art will

1:07:08

really uh enhance the quality of my intelligence meaning spiritual intelligence emotional

1:07:16

intelligence you know curiosity intelligence all kinds of of really

1:07:21

strong seed that we have inside of us which is Sleepy yeah if our can trigger

1:07:28

that to create spark then he wakes up another one then that person walked away with something they gonna think about

1:07:35

they they walking with something wow I like the when people walked in and just

1:07:41

look at oh I like the color I mean for me it's like almost an example

1:07:47

but I'm gonna try to be nice and humble because that's where the intelligence is

1:07:53

taking them that's where they are I'll push back on that a little because I do for example I

1:08:01

think a lot of people speak from color like color hits them as an

1:08:06

emotion as like a center I I know what you're saying about looking at a color that is going to match something yep

1:08:13

that that's where we build a [ __ ] that's not what we're talking about I'm

1:08:18

talking about how somebody walks in and that color just speaks to their soul and it's like that blue it just yeah and

1:08:25

maybe it's me with glass and the color that we work with in glass I mean I can get lost in our work as we're we're

1:08:32

making a particular you know piece and and that color just has a depth to it

1:08:38

yeah but you know I I totally give you that that's totally I I agree with that

1:08:45

but you know uh I have this on the layer expectation in humanity we often stay

1:08:53

just right here in the surface yeah and uh the respond of those colored

1:09:00

variation that's what it is you're responding like you say it to something I mean it's legit it is totally uh uh

1:09:09

valuable period it's very valuable now if you want to understand what this

1:09:15

person is doing either you're gonna ask him a question or you got to give it some time then if you create the

1:09:22

dialogue we not on the surface you you understand where I'm from here yeah I'm

1:09:30

not a dictator about it but uh I like to to look at the world that's just me with

1:09:36

little bit more depth you know all of those things they play out to our growth

1:09:41

or the complexity of who we are I don't know if I'm just going too far but

1:09:47

that's just yeah no no but you know I do Wonder as you're talking about this does

1:09:53

does finding the collector at these outdoor art fairs does that create a

1:10:00

challenge for you do I mean I know you have had a lot of success doing your own

1:10:07

solo shows and working with galleries you have a lot of different ways of

1:10:12

presenting your work to the public and the types of conversations it sounds like that can maybe get a little

1:10:19

exhausting from the customer looking for that color to match their couch or something is that format of show not as

1:10:28

successful for you um no I mean uh it's been a a a great

1:10:34

Catalyst for me okay where I can find a place on this planet I buy this 10 by 10

1:10:42

yeah and I'll have the this opportunity to show the world that's it and if the

1:10:49

the world can see the world then a lot of other opportunities come I mean a lot of The Collector of people then I met

1:10:55

directly who collect my work who supported me I met them and this is a new okay and I take them to another

1:11:01

world with me so I can work with them remotely I can do all kinds of different

1:11:07

now they can see the elevation of where I'm going with my career I say and some

1:11:13

of them then I met there who greatly supported me and then that it just disappeared but it was it's all part of

1:11:19

it and like the people that you know who I tell someone about this work or these

1:11:24

little kids you know then I met and uh it came with the show with his parents and now he's all grown up now he can buy

1:11:31

my work his parents can barely come inside my booth but the kids come okay I

1:11:36

connect with him and he walked away with something so all of that they've very

1:11:41

been valuable to me you know because I don't I didn't have the means to pay

1:11:47

some big catalog and to put my work in there so this is the pad it does make the connection What would do that does

1:11:55

it is a way that we can connect with a an audience without a huge investment

1:12:02

you know what I'm saying we can show up and see a lot of people who are coming for a common common goal to see art and

1:12:09

then then you can nurture those people along and and have them throughout your career yeah and that's a very valuable

1:12:16

in my opinion I would do I would get up and do and then I become a little bit more selective I'm gonna go over here

1:12:22

versus there I'm gonna say less of this versus this but it's all helping me to

1:12:28

to develop something maturely inside of myself how to connect with people and it

1:12:35

doesn't have to always be Capital you know so I mean you want to walk away with great show for sure but you wanted

1:12:42

people also to remember you right and if they remember you most of the time they will come back but I'm still making

1:12:48

Douglas a lot a mistake I go to some show and say what am I doing here but I

1:12:53

go go to some two other ones I've been keep going what I find I build a

1:12:59

relationship with those people they didn't buy the first year the second time they come back and then they

1:13:05

brought their friend like I met one in Chicago the show was

1:13:10

crappy but that person came to my gallery in my studio in

1:13:16

Chicago bought a very solid piece completely left four years later I bump

1:13:23

into him in Florida with the group of friends he brought a friend they brought

1:13:28

a friend by the work so you know all of those things they just like a little

1:13:33

seed that we were putting in different places how they come together that's the mystery but I I still have

1:13:41

the energy in and I I still care so that's what I show up so you have a gallery in Chicago that is a showroom

1:13:49

for like off of your studio is that how it is yeah yeah I'm actually as we speak

1:13:55

right now I just move into this new place that's my workspace in my gallery

1:14:01

and I'm developing so better bigger space better

1:14:07

exposure and all of that is in a new phase so I'm really looking forward to

1:14:12

because these things has to have some way of visualizing so all of those

1:14:18

travel than I did on the soul those people that I met now I want to try to find a way to to bring them to me so if

1:14:27

I can create something like that eventually and they pat they will they

1:14:32

will know where to find it yeah so that's them and then I can really do different work so I can experiment

1:14:40

different things and I would really love to to be able to show all of my friends

1:14:45

or other people that I met who have a great work and out of your gallery

1:14:50

yeah I would like that well one of the things when I was looking over your website that I found really interesting

1:14:56

was a project a Kickstarter that you did several years ago oh yeah and it had a

1:15:02

really cool theme can you tell me about that story I thought that was really cool oh yeah yeah that was the gum

1:15:09

spotting experience that's one of the world one of the most challenging work I

1:15:14

did okay I think in my career he I work on this project for four years it was

1:15:20

chewed up spit out and left out something like that okay I mean I had committed to do

1:15:28

50 56 painting and then you know it's

1:15:33

just I my curiosity again had lead me to a lot of gum spot then people chew gum

1:15:39

this spirit and then you walk to different place and City you find this

1:15:44

black spot everywhere so that triggers something and I start photographing them I had

1:15:51

collected over thousands and thousands of them from different places I travel

1:15:56

and one time I was between show and Chicago I was so down and I was like oh

1:16:02

I was so down did you feel like that gum Splat on the ground uh yeah yeah I was

1:16:08

totally chewed up and spit out you know and then this idea came I was actually

1:16:14

on my way to uh to to walk to a studio then I was uh working from uh when I was

1:16:20

here in this idea came I had started collecting all of this gun

1:16:26

spot and photographing them and then making them big on black and white and

1:16:33

then I will take this black and white on film and then I would shoot it on the

1:16:38

screen and sell screen doors the black and white on the white colored paper oh no watercolor paper

1:16:45

and so from there I had to figure where the painting is inside of it so I start

1:16:52

with One Singular one then I start thinking more I had to learn about how

1:16:58

gum is made or what is all of these things is about so now I start only not putting one I

1:17:05

will put I will create a dialogue of mama said because obviously these are all people who had speak who were chewed

1:17:13

this gum from insecurity from nervousness they were and then I start combining them together and creating a

1:17:21

different platform to work with and so that stuff take off this guy he

1:17:29

was someone was really close he was selling my work in that time he said Michelle you should have one one Kickstarter and then I did that I was

1:17:37

able to raise the money to go back to this process buying the right material and expanding it bigger and uh this work

1:17:46

was and I'm still have a lot left in there but I had it to take some time off

1:17:51

but the E leads to a an incredible exhibit at the Philadelphia International Airport it was there for

1:17:58

six months they create this huge installation with that a lot of people I get to know about it and so it was a

1:18:06

very good experiment and now I still have a lot that I want to do with it and

1:18:14

then last year I went a big Grant in South Florida the Museum of Fort

1:18:19

Lauderdale Art Museum that's the work they wanted to show at the Museum so I was able to exhibit that on a very big

1:18:25

scale and that was really cool that first interaction with with that and you

1:18:31

made a piece from it it sounds like there was such a deep connection to the symbolism between that you know that

1:18:39

being spit out and disregarded and and that just fueled all the series and then

1:18:45

it fueled a whole like even bigger than a series they've almost turned into a whole show and it just was

1:18:52

really a really deep meaningful idea for you I mean what did that mean to you

1:18:57

personally uh for me it's like uh there is uh there is something very resilient

1:19:05

inside of this being this artist and sometimes we lose grab of it

1:19:12

life send us a lot of variety of different channels and then challenges

1:19:18

and then experience and all of those things it's almost sometimes humanly

1:19:23

impossible to weather them it's very difficult but you have to embrace your

1:19:30

your vulnerability you know man I just heard this doesn't feel right and then you start diagnosing that so you can get

1:19:37

out of the mud you know because uh we all experience that from time to time

1:19:42

and that's how I felt from time I had a great success I was sweet people was

1:19:47

chewing down all of these things really nice that's what The Gum does oh you got it right you know you yeah you get all

1:19:54

this gum it's sweet you know you you kind of push all your feelings away you're much confidence you know yeah

1:20:01

right you're on top you're you're the flavor of the week yeah you know yeah

1:20:06

and then now it now it tastes like [ __ ] what you do you throw that out and

1:20:12

another guy come and step on it struggle to move his feet out of that because the

1:20:19

heat the environment did you ever see people really uh step onto a gum you

1:20:26

know well they get very frustrated they don't know if they need to wipe it to clean it but you know so all of that

1:20:33

metaphor kind of work and then this reality then this person than I am I

1:20:38

just find a different way to convey that than this awesome and was that specifically related to you as artists

1:20:46

or were there other issues involved in feeling you know disregarded or set

1:20:52

aside yeah no I mean I think she was all merged you know for me it's all one one

1:20:59

unit uh I'm I'm not only an artist you know I'm many things man you know and

1:21:06

you as well and then all of those other people yeah I mean the uniqueness about

1:21:11

making our work and making our work to sell to support ourselves there can be that feeling of not being appreciated or

1:21:19

loved for what we create and so there's that that sense of vulnerability and

1:21:25

that sense of feeling disregarded it but then there's the second element of not only do they not want to buy my work

1:21:31

because they don't like it they're not buying it and then I have nothing to support myself with so then there's that that you know that that more Primal Fear

1:21:38

of of how do I pay my bills and how do I support myself in life yeah if I'm if

1:21:44

I'm not being rewarded financially for what I do yeah no they this stuff is

1:21:50

real Douglas it's it's real as you can as an artist uh for me that's it I I

1:21:56

don't have a lot of like I say you know a plan B so if these things doesn't work here I

1:22:03

gotta find another way to make it work this way but all inside of the same

1:22:08

field this is what I really want to do till the sun runs out for me and then

1:22:14

also you know so for me as an artist keep going and creating more variety of

1:22:22

different works you know Go in different places Go in different depth explore new

1:22:27

things and that's not always uh an easy route because uh we like to repeat

1:22:34

success right and that's that's that's what killed the artist you know because uh we just

1:22:41

happened to be in this 10x10 for a minute but if you want to have a long charity then if you know you have to let

1:22:49

go some things but that's just me and I love to to to do open some new things

1:22:55

create some new stuff and then just to see where that will lead you know I can always cut it off or amplify it

1:23:04

yeah yeah so I another another question I wanted to ask you is so you had that

1:23:09

really um uh Monumental kind of like what you

1:23:15

wanted to do with your life came into focus when you met those people back in

1:23:21

Senegal and so you had looked to them as kind of a mentorship as a kind of

1:23:27

setting you down a path have you had any kind of experiences where you've been able to be that role or be in the mentor

1:23:35

position for people do you do you have anything like that I mean I uh I I don't advertise that I'm

1:23:44

not too attached to those things but uh these past few months it's a little boy

1:23:50

who comes when I'm in Key West who's very passionate about art and it remind

1:23:55

me a lot of me he's 10 years old so we've been kind of experimenting with

1:24:02

with ours and then just allowing him to use his imagination and the world and

1:24:08

he's in and not structure anything to just give him the place to create work and keep them interested and trying to

1:24:15

expand on that it's very hard for me to teach someone or to to yeah to show

1:24:21

someone what I do because I didn't learn what I do I don't know how to explain

1:24:27

that to another person it's so individual I mean it's I mean you talk

1:24:32

in it sounds to me like you're talking um Concepts or you talk in like more of a

1:24:39

spiritual realm that people can find their own personal way to come to come

1:24:45

to the work like these little kids do you know uh I can see something in him

1:24:50

then I really want to help him to pull out and that interests me and then also

1:24:56

you know doing things uh for your community I I had done a lot of variety

1:25:03

of different stuff and then helping to either like a jury some Artisan

1:25:09

residency during some work for different type of stuff all of that it's all part

1:25:15

of it that's how you can give back to the understanding that you arrive to and

1:25:21

then if people can value that that's pretty cool you know cool well uh to

1:25:28

wrap up uh here are there any other projects that you are currently working on that you want to talk about yeah I'm

1:25:35

I'm totally focused about this new space that I love and then I always wanted to

1:25:42

have my own Gallery so then I can do whatever I want and then expand on that

1:25:49

and then the next year I have something really exciting then I'm working towards it's my first solo show

1:25:57

at the land of Museum and they're giving me a solo exhibit and that's gonna be

1:26:02

really cool because my goal is to be able to have a summary of all of these

1:26:08

different door then I open creatively to put them together can be work than I did

1:26:14

on X-rays of my body work than I did on on on Cell screen on the bed series a

1:26:23

little bit of sculpture a little bit of variety of different door and then put all of them together in one place for

1:26:31

six months wow so the QA the it's been a great dude man I really like him and

1:26:38

then we connect really well when I did the artist of uh you know you say uh

1:26:43

Michelle we definitely want to have you yes so they purchased some of my work

1:26:48

which is very I'm very deeply gratifying honor and uh it's a permanent collection

1:26:55

so there is a very strong interest to what I have to bring in the mix so I

1:27:00

like to really work with him is is a really good cat so that's uh that's cool

1:27:07

when is that gonna happen next year uh yeah the the exhibits uh it's uh we're

1:27:13

planning to do it and uh April and so it's going to run from April I believe

1:27:18

to June or July next year and DeLand Art Museum so the talk was incredible it was

1:27:24

really cool the support that I get from them was really cool nice Yeah man so

1:27:30

I'm I'm excited for that I just gotta get to a decent little difficult place I am in

1:27:36

this uh this transition but you know we're resilient man just keep going kick

1:27:42

some ass make good art that's right keep your mouth shut

1:27:47

your mouth shut in your uh and your mind open right there you go I like that yeah yeah yeah

1:27:56

and your heart opens it keeps the heart open yeah in the heart yeah say it's less is possible but always trying to

1:28:04

make good work man yeah make good work say less and then one things you know be

1:28:09

kind you never know who's gonna walk into your boob and change your world yeah oh well this has been a wonderful

1:28:17

talk and I feel really um really inspired by your story thanks for sharing so much with me today

1:28:24

oh thanks Douglas you know thanks for your kindness and then you have something

1:28:30

good man keep it up the approach the kindness and the vulnerabilities no

1:28:36

totally eight plus man ah thanks I look forward to seeing you out there again and I'm glad to have a new friend to a

1:28:42

new friend uh in you so I really I really appreciate you man thanks so much yeah and if you ever come to Chicago

1:28:48

just to let me know you can always come to our openr studio here it's really nice it's different and I think she will

1:28:55

like it it's awesome seeing different artists doing different things yeah and

1:29:00

then it's it's all the same it's all the same tribe now that's right yeah all right oh very

1:29:08

grateful man I'm happy and then we figured this technique we figured out

1:29:13

the Tactical yes we did we figured it out it took a little while but we got it yeah yeah all right well we'll see you

1:29:20

around man appreciate it yeah we did all right yes thank you Douglas and then I have a lovely day you too

1:29:27

that was a great talk Douglas I love Michelle's work and I love hearing him explain his history his path what got

1:29:34

him to where he is I just think we're a phenomenally lucky Community to have him as as part of it I I kind of found

1:29:40

myself at moment like I wanted to like jump in to explain things that I didn't

1:29:47

really understand and so you know I found my rhythm and I felt like just sitting back and and just

1:29:54

asking questions and letting him reveal his story and it was such a touching deep story that I didn't expect yep

1:30:03

that's another thing that I love about the show they never really give us what we do expect right I often go into some

1:30:09

of these talks with preconceived notions and as we have evolved through the last year and a half

1:30:16

I am learning to strip those preconceived notions and just try and stay really present with the talk and

1:30:23

allow it to not feel so like we're driving it you know it's like allow the

1:30:29

story to unfold and just be present and witness it wow look who's smoking the Eckhart totally that's right or the

1:30:37

brene brown right oh big fans hey what did you think about his gum spotting

1:30:43

project that he was working on uh it's interesting it's really really it's it's really interesting and I've got a couple

1:30:48

of talks coming up and talking about different projects that we all have going so yeah yeah what do you think

1:30:53

well the thing I thought was kind of cool is that symbolism around when

1:30:59

you're chew that gum and you're the flavor of the week and you're on top and it just made me really like think of

1:31:07

this business and I've known so many friends who've had that moment when

1:31:13

they're just at the top of their game and then it almost feels like a switch

1:31:18

gets flipped and and then the balance comes in and then you have to kind of reinvent yourself and recreate yourself

1:31:25

and it's not that the work has suddenly changed it's not that the quality has changed

1:31:30

but I think that there is a timeline on some of the things that we put out there that it's like okay I'm done with that

1:31:36

let's move on to the next thing yeah I feel like you have to kind of subtly grow uh all along there are good friends

1:31:43

of mine that I've seen stagnate and do the exact same thing over and over again as long as you're still creating new

1:31:51

things and having new energy in it I think that can help you but I know I definitely know what you mean I've seen

1:31:57

people complain about the good old days and then it's like well you're still

1:32:02

making the same art that you were making back in the good old days maybe the the people are still there they're just not

1:32:08

there for you anymore because you haven't changed yeah well I've also felt like sometimes we we craft our life or

1:32:14

craft our business around those boom times and we really need to keep that

1:32:20

mental note in our head just from a business side of you that there's going to be Ebbs and flows and never

1:32:26

overextend ourselves if we want to keep this business going into the future to

1:32:31

really as a business model kind of be like okay recognize you know what I mean the highs and the lows are going to be

1:32:38

part of it no way I'm always going to be on top see you later losers

1:32:44

all right that was my little bit of advice for the day I appreciate it let's

1:32:50

save a little through the rainy day all right I'll see you next week all right see you next time man appreciate it

1:32:57

this podcast is brought to you by the National Association of Independent Artists the website is

1:33:04

naiaartists.org also sponsored by zapplication that's zapplication.org and while you're at it

1:33:10

check out Will's website at willarmstrongark.com and my website at

1:33:16

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