The Independent Artist Podcast

The Art of Business/ Dolan and Ali Marie Geiman

June 20, 2022 Douglas Sigwarth/ Will Armstrong/ Dolan Geiman Season 2 Episode 12
The Independent Artist Podcast
The Art of Business/ Dolan and Ali Marie Geiman
Show Notes Transcript

Join co-hosts Douglas Sigwarth and Will Armstrong, professional working artists who talk with guests about ART & SELLING.  This week's topics include the Old Town Art Fair, showing other works within the same vision, and incorporating new tips into our business strategies.

This week’s guest is Dolan and Ali Marie Geiman Denver, CO.  This partnership is the perfect pairing between the creative and the business aspects of Dolan's art career. When Ali Marie met Dolan, she was taken by his intense passion as an artist. She chose to hop on that train and utilize her own intensity towards the business aspect of his work. This delineation of duties has allowed them to stay in their lane and build a successful business. In this episode, the Geiman's share some of the business strategies regarding marketing, branding, and practices that have served them well over the last 20 years.

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welcome to the independent artist podcast sponsored by the National Association of Independent Artists also


sponsored by zapplication I'm will Armstrong and I'm a mixed media artist I'm Douglas sigworth glassblower join


our conversations with professional working artists


hello hello everyone independent artist welcome back to the show Welcome to the Pod welcome back to the hamster wheel


Douglas nice to see your face here hope you uh have a great weekend I thought we were off the hamster wheel what are you


talking about have you seen our schedules Jesus Christ man I've got like 10 days to make what 70 pieces or


something insane I don't know if that's gonna happen good for you you're trying to gear up for Denver right Cherry Creek


no even sooner than that I got Des Moines wow I forgot yeah I'm not doing Des Moines this year I will miss you


there my friend uh but I will see you in Denver I might not be doing Des Moines either I'm having a really hard time


I've been we got back from Old Town and now I've got a pinched nerve in my neck


from the status of these feet walking on these braces has thrown the whole alignment off yeah you know that happens


with athletes a lot too not that we are athletes Douglas but I used to be yeah I'm far from that now right but a


pitcher gets bone spurs in his elbow and he starts throwing a little bit differently and then all of a sudden and his back is out of whack so yeah yeah I


mean honestly it's I stepped down differently now because of how my feet are being held together and it has now


thrown my back into spasms and whatnot so I only bring this up because you know


physical issues are such an exciting topic to talk about on the podcast seems


like everybody's dealing with one though exactly there's so many people I know with having hip surgeries and knee


Replacements and all this kind of stuff and it's how do we maneuver this life that we live while handling life you


know and it's getting older and all that stuff yeah you get super excited for Des Moines and then realize you you can't


lift your hands over your head I was in the studio yesterday and just walking across the studio holding the blowpipe


it we had to stop blowing I didn't sleep last night can't blow today it's like how do you adapt to that kind of thing


when you need many full days in the studio to get done what you need to get done but we'll see what happens we'll


see raise your prices sounds like a supply and demand issue sounds like like it could be a good problem to have well


I don't want to be a bragger but I did raise the prices and Chicago missed me


so uh that was kind of a fortuitous event for sure boy that's awesome yeah


yeah a really nice uh Chicago how was how was shy town for you this week uh it was great Chicago is always solid for me


I always always love going up going back there I have a nice following so you know I segueing into our talk today with


Dolan and Ali Marie I actually followed some of the advice that I'd gotten from them so that show may have a little bit


more legs than it has in the past I got all of the names of my be backs I've got all of my contacts and so it's kind of a


little little teaser it is a teaser because yeah listening to their episode it's like a master class in marketing


and branding and all that stuff they're very open and sharing about their techniques what works for them yeah


definitely and I it's already started to pay off for me I feel like a lot of these talks Doug we throw a lot at you


and our guests will kind of throw a lot at you and you'll kind of see what sticks and you certainly don't have to


follow everything that the guests are doing you don't need to get overwhelmed with something that somebody might be


suggesting but if you get a little tiny glimmer of of something that sticks with you it's almost like a I don't know


reading a good book and and one sentence might might stick with you the rest of your life so I feel like there are a lot


of little pearls in there that you could pick and choose from even if you you choose not to use every aspect of the


talk yeah I mean we have so many commonalities amongst ourselves as a group but we're not necessarily this


homogeneous group where we all approach our business models the exact same way or we create the same way so I think


with anything we do find some we find inspiration from each other but it isn't


an All or Nothing kind of thing we don't need to follow each other's business model in order to feel like we're doing


it right you know what I'm saying yeah I absolutely do I feel like there are


things that you know things that we talk about in the interview where this is


Dolan and Ali Marie's business model where mind differs a little bit and I made kind of a jab about hey if you're


gonna sit there in your chair and not dress up or not do this or not do that it's like well you know maybe that's


somebody else's business model and that works for them so it's like you said it's not an all or nothing so I don't


want anybody to get turned off by the by thinking they have to do it all one way because there are many many different


ways that we all run our businesses well here on the front end of their talk I just want to kind of say I think maybe


the end of our talk will be a little longer this time because there are a bunch of things they talk about that I'd


kind of like to come back to and address or maybe we'll end up talking about it next week but just for maybe some people


who kind of cut off a little quick or something before the end of the episode maybe stay tuned to the end just to see


you know kind of our takes on some of their techniques we don't want to spoil what they're going to talk about here on


the front end of their clock it is yeah it is a longer talk this week and it you get two for the price of one you get the


business aspect and you get the art aspect and yeah really the art of business but so it does go a little bit


longer our good friend Oscar is going to have to segment this one into four separate episodes so we can get through


it Oscar I love you oscar but uh you can hit pause and come back to it my friend


and you can I've been dealing with him this week he's got a got himself a fine


business in in Chicago he comes highly recommended by the gallery that I use up there oh he's doing uh installation work


up there so his parlayed his photography business into an installation thing that's really been taking off that's


really good work if you can if you can get it I feel like we all need those a lot of these um well you guys too and


yeah how nice would it be to just hand it off pay somebody to do it well you know uh that's a good point you brought


up because we had a really interesting story come up this weekend at the last show and we do these collections of


pieces that we hang on the wall for people and it really is a daunting thing


once you get Beyond three pieces of glass how people are gonna Mount them and hang them because they're like I


like them but I can hang a painting that is centered over a mantle that is this much inches above the mantle and Center


that's that seems a little easier for some folks than to be like well how do I factor in the reflections of the glass


where do I position the pieces so that the negative space all looks good so if we throw in that hey we'll come and hang


it for you that pretty much sends somebody who's on the edge over the edge and makes the sale so definitely yeah we


had one of those this weekend yeah that is absolutely a huge thing for me too people will be like well how would I get


it home and then that's where the conversation switches to I am delivering it not like I'm not even saying well


delivery is an option I just start saying well where am I taking it I'm like you bought a nice piece of artwork


I already start talking about it in the past tense like they've already bought it yeah and it also seems like it's kind


of understood that they it's not like an imposition that for you that's part of the package or something right I mean


like you just bought a nice piece of artwork why would you carry it make the make the train monkey carry it


you like Billy Joel I'll sing you I'll sing you too let's go yeah it's it's a


it's a good thing how did your uh your install go it went really well and actually I have kind of two little


components to this this story I wanted to talk about the first is these people came to the booth right off the bat


beginning of the show they connected to our most expensive piece we had good conversation about it but it was the


classic we we like it we want to walk around and come back sure so right before they left they had recognized my


last name and asked me if I knew somebody with the same last name from a


very rural community and Iowa turns out it's my first cousin so oh well we have this in common with each other who knew


we we knew each other so they walked the show they come back and I'm engaged in one of those talks


that Dolan and Ali Marie are talking about in their talk later about somebody who just wants to shoot the [ __ ] about


stuff talking to Jimmy right and so once this collector comes back that you feel


like okay this is their second time they're probably serious I start inching my way over to them and kind of given


the nod and eyes to the people who are just talking about nothing I'm moving on now and they keep wanting to talk to me


and they're following me and it's like I realize it's as irritating as it is as a


salesperson and an artist but if I turn to them and dismiss them in a rude way


right then the people I'm trying to sell to see that and that can be off-putting so that is such a tough situation yeah


absolutely you know that brought me to another thing I've been defining those conversations and uh it it actually kind


of came to me during Fort Worth when they bring they bring a group of kids


and several of the kids are severely Autistic or on the Spectrum some Asperger's kids some other uh


disabilities and they're bringing this whole group around and I love engaging with those kids but something kind of


hit me it's like well a lot of times with Asperger's you with with the


Aspergers a lot of times with Asperger's the thing


is that they don't pick up on social cues for sure right so I started doing this thing where I'm like


I was actually doing them a favor and they kind of recognized it in their head and I'm like okay well our conversation


is over now so I'm gonna go over here and talk to them it was really nice having you in the booth and they're like okay thank you that helped them to


transition it was really clear yeah I was like here's the end of the talk I really loved talking to you do you feel


like shaking my hand here it is and it was very clear so I started using


that with some of the other things and I'm like hey uh you know what Jimmy I just had this customer come back and


they've been talking about this piece over here if you'd like to listen to you know not even I mean like let me talk to these guys for a minute if that's okay


with you and just be kind and Define the conversation and it it's it's like I


don't know I feel like a lot of times we are so passive um right that it's helpful to Define it


for folks yeah and I mean these guys were past customers but they were clearly past customers that weren't


going to become future customers they you know we were we were reliving some past memories and so another thing like


Dolan now let me talk about we formed these connections with customers like they think of us as family and we think of them as family and whatnot so yeah


right you kind of you have to make it really clear like oh it was really nice thank you for coming


here's a new relationship well this new relationship actually so I


told you how he knew recognized my last name and knew my father's side of the family as I'm telling this story to my


family online it turns out we're actually third cousins this new collector nice he's related to me on my


mother's side of the family okay by like two or three generations away so we're third cousins and that also I guess


tells you what a small community my relatives all come from if you know know him on one side of the family and


related on the other side of the family welcome to the Midwest so anyway but we you know in this


business when we say we're sending people home with our work as kind of an artifact of their experience with the


artist this added so much meaning to the piece that they had already purchased


and committed to to find that out after the fact so that was kind of fun you


know we left the show with that that nice sale but then that nice experience on top of it yeah that's really nice


those kind of connections are kind of what it's all about yeah that's why we do the in-person thing for sure yeah


it's why I I don't want to let go of the shows you know we talk about diversification in this episode quite a


bit and that topic has come up with with uh both you know marginal and vanderheart and crystalquist and talking


about uh how do we extend past the art show and these guys talk about that as


well and and I don't want to lose that part it's kind of my favorite part is connecting with with the customers and


meeting new new people right as we've learned from all these talks there's so


many benefits we get from having customers putting eyes on our work you


know it helps us to evolve the work quickly but then some of these talks that we're having are also identifying


these industry shifts that are happening for years this was the only model for a


lot of artists and then covet happens and we're finding other ways not to


replace the shows but to expand off of the shows and how we can continue that


process so I'm really glad this was kind of a good timing for this talk with with dolana Ali Marie because we kind of


organically craft the order of these talks based on what's kind of happening with with us personally and you know in


our in our own practice and that kind of came in at a really good time yeah it's like it's like good comedy uh good


comedy and they Circle back and do a recall uh it's a it's a nice little recall as it jumps back and revisits


some of the things that we did in the the first couple of uh first handful of episodes and at a different point in


time because you remember back when we talked to Chris dahlquist and margeline about other revenue streams and means of


selling our work we were all shut down we weren't even out on the road we were still in our Studios trap and it was


awesome was stuck in another country for sure it's stuck that's where she lives she lives in Canada yeah it's not like


it's Timbuktu but um The Border was not allowing her into the U.S right good good thing keep those


Canadians away from us


no we we love those Canadians especially the Canadian snowbirds they bring the


loot they do to Florida I was walking you know talking about Dolan and Ali


Marie I was walking past their Booth during Loadout uh at Sherry Creek is like five or six years ago okay I'm


walking down the street and he's like what size cowboy boots are those I'm like uh 12 and he's like you want some


black ones I'm like I absolutely want some black one take these uncomfortable pieces of [ __ ] and get them out of here


and he's just joking I'm like all right so I take them they're they're nice looking black boots I uh I wore them at


my next show and I know Michael schweigman is sitting here over here listening and he's like he doesn't believe in luck he doesn't believe in in


one right right but I wore those uncomfortable pieces of garbage on my feet during that entire show I'd never


made more money in my life they were your lucky boots I felt like I had Superman's cape on I


texted uh Ali Marie I'm like look if Dolan uh pulls a really bad show or whatever


um I can I can send you these boots right she's like I think we're good so I think the moral of the story is if Dolan


offers any of his uh lucky garments to anybody walking by take them because there's money in that [ __ ] if he whips


his cowboy we had into the crowd at the end of the show snag that thing fight for it fight for that drumstick baby I


love it you know you mentioned heading off to Des Moines and I really like the kind of switch that Stephen King brought


to that show where it's just what is it just 2D in 3D is that how he how he writes the categories aren't broken down


into finer points it's it's basically the two broader categories 3D or 2D yeah


okay but even that I feel like with like Matthew Napster Matthew Napster has jewelry and if he juries in with jewelry


he also makes these incredible objects that have almost like vessels to his you


know it's all part of this narrative thing yeah everything he makes is that's got that yeah that kind of vision


whether it's jewelry or sculpture yeah for sure and you step right into his vision as long as you go into the booth


it's all part of it from his display all the way to the objects and the things and it's like I remember him getting


caught for having sculpture in his Booth when he had juried under jewelry and I thought it was a really misguided Direct


active as far as like the show was concerned like you're not allowed to have this okay yeah but but look at look


at the way that the vessel carries the thing to the the other piece and it's part of it and how it visually I mean we


understand the reasoning behind it obviously do we oh the reasoning behind


uh micromanaging the the work at the show yeah I don't I don't know that I do well but I I think the in theory it's to


to keep the quality up so people don't jury in with high level work and then show up with other stuff I mean we talk


about cheaters all the time I think that's the intention behind it but it really does stifle the creativity a bit


when when you're able to Branch out and bring something really cutting edge that still fits into your style but it


doesn't matter jury images I guess that's the point I I really don't think that like okay if I started selling


jewelry in my booth I've juried in with 2D I'd get run out on a ring right well jewelry is absolutely is one of the very


most competitive it's super competitive as Deb Adelson said in her episode last


year she said anybody who puts a pin on the back calls it a brooch and calls himself a jeweler so it is kind of of a


broad category and it does need to have a Discerning Eye In The Jury Room absolutely it does and and you know I I


do understand not letting a sculptor show show jewelry but then what if it's


like you know can the Jeweler show a jewelry box you know I mean is where are


we where are we Drawing the Line there I just feel like if there's a certain quality to it I understand that the hard


and fast rules uh there there are we're artists yeah so it's uh there are loopholes I guess I had a really


intentional or not intentional yeah I had a really interesting conversation at a show recently with uh Michael guard


about this very topic Michael does these beautiful uh dancing wire sculptures


that are in the air oh yeah I love Michael really identifiable style and work well he's come up with a whole new


body of work that he's excited about too they're wall hangings mixed media I believe they're called mandalas but I


might be saying I might be describing them wrong but anyway they're super super cool but he expressed the


frustration with with coming up with new body of work and showing the new work


because in inherent in the creation of new work is the audience feedback but


getting the new work into a show can take almost a year to like make the work


photograph the work apply to the show show the work to get that feedback and I can totally relate to that struggle of


not being able to show something that you're just you know kind of a departure from your from your other stuff yeah I


agree with you I I do I do have some new work myself and I just I threw it in the booth and you can clearly tell that I


did it yeah it's kind of like what we get in with with the Dolan it's like Dolan's work whether he's making a


buffalo head out of old baseball mitts or whether he's doing a a painting


basically out of collage with actual paint you can put it side by side and it still looks like the same experience


yeah it's still part of his vision and part of his voice and you can tell and that's one of the things that I


mentioned that was not just it kind of came off as just a compliment but it is like it's it's a it's a booth it's a


presence it's a it's a a whole thing and a lot of us do that and I think my work I don't know what I have found is that


my new work still looks like me so if for sure it's you I mean it's a different subject matter


um and you you you have work that has kind of western themed or rock and roll theme but it all has a Synergy to it or


we all do you know I mean we're trying yeah we're trying it and it's like when Napster has his uh his objects and his


his jewelry you can still tell it came from the same Twisted mind


you know well uh speaking of Twisted Minds should


we jump into this conversation with uh Dolan and Ali Marine we should but I don't know if they're Twisted minds I


think they're very organized okay Dolan that was a stretch at a Segway I'm


sorry no Twisted mind there okay I shouldn't call you on it it's a great talk and uh let's let's get right into


it all right well here is Dolan and Ali Marie guyman from Denver Colorado


this episode of The Independent artist podcast is brought to you by zap the digital application service where


artists and art festivals connect well I've been getting notices from shows this week that I need to jump on and pay


for my booth but I'm not at home at my desk so I really enjoy that I'm able just to flip open my phone flip open


your phone do you have a flip phone Doug yes it does zap work on your flip phone because that's impressive but I turn on


my phone I log into zap and I'm able to buy my booth right there on the spot and


I can make sure I get that double Booth or that corner Booth I'm looking for and I don't get stuck somewhere I don't want


to be quit talking about double booths because if those shits are sold out by the time I come to get to them I'm gonna


be mad well I sure do appreciate that with zap


we're able to keep up on our business with the shows on the road using our mobile device


hey welcome to the podcast you guys thank you so much I've got uh Dolan and Ali Marie guyman here uh both parts of


an amazing business here and and uh differently run I think than a lot of artists uh and Partnerships around the


art businesses uh which is what we kind of wanted to talk about today sweet great um thank you for having us on me I


really appreciate it Dolan you're the art part there's no jealousy on that end with you Ali Marie you have the you have


a completely different business yes I think that that the division of labor is something very unique to us and


I feel like a lot of our colleagues on this circuit kind of uh each do a little bit of both and so I


think it's a little interesting trajectory that we've been on where we just um not only with the really obvious factor of just like Dolan is the


literally the one physically creating the art but I think even from uh day one there were just like even other Arenas


that we just really made sure to delineate you know who does you know


ultimately the the writing or is like the first point of contact with our customers or like who has final say on


pricing stuff like that so those are just some things that we've always made sure that we established who does what


because I think in having a partnership in both marriage you know life personally and in


work it's been very important right that we establish those things do you find yourself being more of like are you the


boss is what I'm trying to get at are you yeah it is and and it's funny like


we I'm just gonna jump right in here yeah please no we're not the boss but jumping in um for like a number of years you know


like my name's on the business like it's still one guyman Inc right you know and for a number of years I was kind of like


yeah you know I'm kind of the boss maybe I don't know and but but but knowing


also that like all the decisions that we made like all the financial decisions everything on the back end like Alan


Marie was basically making all those decisions and setting us up for success in that way and right and and about I


don't know a couple years ago we kind of had like a I don't want to say like I had to had but you know like we were like like yeah we were having like a


really busy period and it was like a lot of things were happening and there's like some frustration going on or whatever


and I was like I think I we both kind of realized at the same time but I was kind of like I'm not the [ __ ] CEO like


you're the CEO that's your job like I can't do this stuff I'm horrible at it I


I came to realization I was like I'm really bad at doing a lot of things that I'm pretending to do like yeah I don't


know some admin stuff some email stuff you know man technology well I mean like


it's the it's the part that none of us really want to do and um Ali Marie is doing that part she is


kind of the CEO you know she really is is putting it all together and or am I


wrong no you're you're correct that's right she definitely is and the other thing is that if something's like not


going right or if I'm butting my head against something I'm like okay well maybe the reason this is not going right or not working really well is because


like this is not what I'm really good at like this is not the thing that I'm meant to be doing like it's it's not


under my umbrella I'm stepping out from under that umbrella and that's why I'm getting soaking [ __ ] wet because I'm


like get back under there get back in the realm where I can really do great things right no no my talents no know my


areas of expertise and then the areas where she's able to really crush it like just let her handle that and just know


that like have the confidence to know that she's gonna do great at that that's she's a she's a no-fail person she will


not let something go until it's like okay this is the way it needs to be right so and there's an art in that too


I mean it's huge to have that on your side I mean both of you guys I mean it's like to have him


as the person you promote too you know it's it's it's incredible really she's


not cheap I'll just say that okay let's just get that out there okay I mean very very pricey always the new car you know


whatever yeah yes anybody that knows everybody knows


that that's that's not true absolutely you guys are uh okay so let's um I want to rewind a little bit and kind of


figure out where where this kind of came together I'll I'll do a little quick a little like pretty pre-story story but


like um I was bouncing around in Virginia and like a lot of I think this is important for people to know too like


you know everyone has those like little struggles to their story right so for a lot of artists A lot of times the


questions we get asked by like up-and-coming artists or people that are endeavoring to do some creative uh


entrepreneurship or something like that they're always like well how did you get started you know and a lot of like really hard work at the


beginning and still hard work now but like a lot of a lot of struggling so when I got out of college I was


expecting someone to come up and hand me a job or like be like of course you know what you're talented we want you come on


in here Mister you're the recruiters cigar you know and um and it was not that shockingly yeah and um I struggled


I ended up working for a number of people who took advantage of me and like didn't pay me any money and I was like that's fine that's okay I'm still doing


what I like to do and I'm not making any damn money um and then I was living on the street


and then living in abandoned spaces and that was kind of where I was able to save money not having to pay rent or eat


food you know this is in Chicago this was in before I went to Chicago I was in Virginia and so I actually met up with


one of the most talented artists I've met in my entire life leioshare he's actually still creating art he's on he's


on Instagram yeah he's amazing he's a super amazing dude so I lived with him we we actually met in Charlottesville I


was on the street selling stuff and he and his wife at the time came to me and they were like you know what the [ __ ]


are you doing man and I was like who are you guys I'm selling all right get on my face yeah don't bother my customers and he


was like no what are you doing what is this you know and I've done it to me at the time like they had just graduated from a really great school in Boston and


um and we're like living on the street and so we kind of met up and had this little group and we would we lived in this abandoned warehouse and like made


art together and then came out and sold it on the street together and we're really just trying to like figure something out we put a few Gallery shows


together and we're kind of making a little bit of money and then my uncle


saw some of the stuff that was doing and he's he's like a philanthropist like our collector and and he he had seen some of


the stuff at my mom's house and over Christmas or something like that and he was like what what's going on with this and I was like oh I'm living in this


abandoned building and just making art and you know whatever I'm trying to be an artist and he's like you need to go to Chicago and I was like I don't like


cities man I don't know if you've seen my wardrobe but these dip overalls don't work too well on the streets


and he was just like no you should go and he's like tell you what I'm gonna buy this painting from you and then why don't you take that money and go buy a


plane ticket and come to Chicago and visit me so I did that and I visited him and he was like I tell you what how


about I set up and this is like the thing of like this is where I got help so he was like how about I set up an art show for you in my apartment in downtown


Chicago and I'll invite like a handful of friends and I'm sure they'll all buy your work and then maybe you can use that money to move to Chicago it was


super generous you know yeah so so I was like okay so like a couple months later I did that I went to his apartment I


made as much work as I could make in a couple months um very motivated came there sold a handful of pieces I had like a couple


Grand in my pocket so the next day I drove back to Virginia loaded up my crap


from the abandoned warehouse and drove straight back out to Chicago and then just moved there that was it that was the decision and then a week later or a


couple weeks later I met Ali Marie um literally I had just gotten there I moved into an abandoned building there


set it up


did he catch him and he's he's like abandoned building phase like is this


how old are you guys at the time so don't three years yeah well see the older than me not younger and so I was


21. okay so yeah you're just kids we were kids making great decisions not and


not turned off by the the way the handsome homeless kid uh yeah no I was living on the south side of Chicago and


he was on the North side that could take up the entire podcast convincing me to go to that first that opening that he


had that we met this fortuitous supposed gallery show it also never been yeah


spray painted on the house said Gallery okay yeah but I roll up what looks like a


just everything you would expect yeah you know and like a rickety door a dark hallway no bulb like this is not what I


thought a gallery was I was like maybe it is I've never been to a gallery show in my life I have no idea what that even is and we met and uh drove back down to


the South Side eventually that night and then I packed up and moved in with him on Saturday the next day wow yeah you


know just straightforward good decisions yeah but I mean it was you had an instinct right it's it's worth it yeah


it's worked out and uh it's interesting because I had a conversation with a somebody new in my life like a new


friend is a very different trajectory everything about his life is so different my own and he he asked me yesterday like because I I'm somebody


that really uh I push people away it's very hard to get to know me and he uh he


asked me a point blank he's like what was it about Dolan that penetrated that barrier so quickly and I just said it's


like it was it was his passion like it was infectious yeah and somebody that had that sort of passion for what he was


doing very very much a field to me because I just I live life with that sort of Mantra as well I mean mine


manifests through work you know I'm very intense with what I do but I saw that


level of intensity and it was just sort of like you can jump on that train with him or probably there's not going to be


a relationship because the art in Dolan went hand in hand right and then there was no question about that


that's I mean that's uh when I first met you I mean that's what I noticed to Nolan I mean it's just kind of I mean


you're you're a Creator and you're you're you're making things out of a number of different things all at once uh two


there you're kind of hitting it from you know it's like well I'm a painter I'm a collage artist I'm a sculptor I'm doing


this uh don't pin me down yeah don't film and I think that and that's funny that you mentioned that too is like I


feel like that was the one of my biggest struggles talking about another struggle but that was like a really big uh


struggle too and I think a lot of artists go through that right where where everyone wants your stuff to look the same so they can kind of put you in


a category and know what you are you know and I think that was what was really liberating too about meaning Allen reading she was just like


this is interesting what are you working on whatever and then after a while she was like well it doesn't really matter what you're working on because I want to


promote it anyway just like you know give me the information that I need to know and I'm just going to make sure that like this doesn't fail ever yeah


and that's like I had never met anybody like her who was like yeah well you want to do this great you know it's like


we're you're around those artist communities and everyone's kind of like yeah man it's great oh yeah that's like


it's really cool yeah we should have a show and and then you have a lot of people that just talk a lot about stuff


which is cool it's nice to have those people that are you know like a little bit loose and fun and a little bit more


you know capricious but like she was the first person I'd ever met that was like oh you want to do a show at this place


okay well what we need to contact this person this person this person we need to make sure we have this our ducks are over this and then we need to plan three


weeks out for that and she was already like creating these lists big list person and um spreadsheets and I was


like oh that's that's how you get [ __ ] done that's how it happens you know you like make a plan and then you execute


the plan like yeah that has to be inspiring for you right I mean because it's working for both of us I mean I




utilized and it could have been applied to a very different sort of business and how utterly fulfilling this


has been to utilize like the skills that he's identifying but to do it for for an artist has been so fun it's so fun


definitely well we uh use Ali Marie as a verb in our house I don't know if that


is you're aware of it's like I just need to Allen Marie the [ __ ] and yeah it does


kind of focus it's like you are an incredible uh human as far as like the


the getting all of that stuff done and I want to hear more about that and like


how you guys structure your business how you kind of approach it too because I feel like at this point in your career


Dolan I feel like you just get to create is that that truly you just step away from from her her part of of the job


yeah most of the time that Matt that's her goal is to get me to do that because again like it's reflecting on my


umbrella task like that's what I'm really good at just coming up with an idea you understand that we're like come up with an idea and make you make you


know and and if we just want to dumb it right down like just get in the studio make a thing and take it out and sell it


to people or show it to people or whatever you know and and um yeah she's she's doing a fantastic


job of giving me that creating that safety zone for me so where it's like protecting me from like you know out


like clients or or you know people that want to do an interview or like someone that's like I just got started can you


talk to me real quick and then it's like three hours later you're like wow um so yeah that that's the goal that's


the goal now it doesn't always happen of course things that you just have to do sometimes where it's like someone wants to talk to me they don't they're like


well maybe I don't want to talk to Allen Marie I want to talk to Dolan because he's their artist and she's like well I can tell you everything and maybe just


cut to the chase a little bit yeah yeah pretty much yeah but that's the


goal that is the goal yeah absolutely okay yeah I want to talk about where you guys are selling I don't see you on the


road as much as I used to it I feel like it can luck into like a one or two times


a year you've definitely cut way back on on the shows how do you decide where you


sell and what your approach is without yeah so I mean I think it has been one


that we since 2010 when we first did a wholesale show I think is when we really


began the multi-prong multi-faceted approach in a very serious way and we've


just been building all of these different different potential Revenue


opportunities or income models you know be it wholesaling to a brick and mortar store working with interior designers


art Consultants building our website art fairs commissions and then even


licensing and so I think for 10 years we


really just we're open to all of those at our in our website


spoke to all of those and we were just sort of probably spreading ourselves


obviously a little too thin in having all this rolling at the same time but


doing our best to just sort of see what would feel like a long-term model for us


but also you know just in my mind was always we could show up at Fort Worth and there


could be a tornado and that you know it's like you can't count on those shows was always just this thing that's


playing out in the back of my mind I was like it's just too risky because of the the weather factor or just like there's


just so many variables that can go into that so I knew we needed to diversify so we Diversified Diversified Diversified


diversity and then like 20 20 hits and we were in a really really good position to weather that you know


and that we could be like okay no shows what does this look like well we have a website we have an incredible mailing


list we have commission opportunities that have just been sitting there that we haven't been able to pursue like what


do we feel like best utilizes our talents maybe best like you know um and


what what is that price point what does that client tell and so I think we really had that opportunity to dig into


that and to start to shift you know from away from shows as we had to but then


it's something that I think Dolan realized that for him he was yearning to do but we were just too much on the


train as I'm sure I think a lot of us realize like you're just on that train and you can't even definitely evaluate it because it's just you're on to the


next show all the time yeah so Dolan you were yearning like at the time you you wanted to get off the tree yeah I I um I


definitely did I um I think a big part of that for me was that I wanted to get excited about making work and like


having the space to make more complex pieces or to work more uh intimately


with certain clients on actualizing pieces you know through the commission process like go Bolder go larger with


some of these pieces which is really hard when you're like okay I can work four hours in between driving Fort Worth


to Houston and try to like get a little bit done on this piece and then I'll come back to it it's just it's a really


it just doesn't have the fullest level fluidity yeah it's a really good way to say it and I think one Suite did got off


the train I realized for myself I have much I was yearning for that as well for a very very different set of reasons but


how lovely it has been to slow down on on shows yeah or in a place that we love


we're like in Colorado we moved here for a reason and there's just so many people


and activities really like that we love here I mean Chicago was never really the


best fit for us at our for our souls so I think leaving for shows all the time made sense


and now we're here and we're like wait a minute we love where we live we love our community here we love our the you know


all the Hobbies we have here that we need to nurture those oh that's amazing we talked before you moved out to


Colorado and I was wondering if you'd been able to access that I knew that was the goal but then the busyness it seemed


like it you could very easily get stuck not being able to take advantage of of the things that you love because you're


so busy because you had to be you know it's this this constant double-edged sword this Catch-22 where it's like well


I'm so busy because I live in Colorado and I have to pay for it that's very real and I think there was a little bit


when we we landed here we're like it's amazing and we were like you know squeezing in all these little like early


you know early evening hikes and stuff like that but there was that fear of like holy moly we just tripled our cost


of living from Chicago and I don't think people realize yeah


okay what is this what is business look like um yes I mean like there's a certain


inequities here like we we needed to buy like I mean there was so few rentals and


stuff like that like whereas in Chicago it never made sense for us um to own because the market was so much


better we were just always in these unique spaces off the beaten path but here we needed to so like we had to go


through like home ownership you know for the first time and stuff like that that we just did not ever do in Chicago so that was


like another element but it's happening more and more I mean we have to be incredibly I mean I I guess I feel like


I had to be incredibly disciplined in my schedule in order to


make it happen um you know it's like I have to get up every morning at 5 30 a.m and just


that's how it has to be to squeeze in the things that I want to do but it's happening more so I think that's a good


spot too to break out and kind of tell people maybe who don't know us um we come to the studio that we built


we come here every day we try to get here pretty early between like between 7 30 and 8 30 is kind of the


goal um and then so do both of you work from the same Studio or is it yeah Henry has


an office space and then I have a separate office space and then a bunch of like little areas where I can go make


make things make good things um so we're here every day we try to


take Sundays off and do something outside but we're here every day and you


know and that that changes sometimes you know um but we for the for a very long time


have committed to a get up go to work come home kind of thing when we were


first starting out we had kind of live workspaces where we were always there and we were always just like working these weird crazy ass hours like work


till three in the morning watch Matlock and then go drink a six-pack smoke a pack of cigarettes go to bed at like 7


A.M you know like those very weird and like young young things you can do when you're young


yeah but now we we definitely just get up come come to work I know will I think you and I talked about that too a little


bit like you know look at that schedule and it's it's like I've always loved that and I I've got my own space now and


uh that that goal of getting up and going to work is huge for me some of the pros we talk to do this too but it's um


that Bankers hours kind of thing that I really like I really like getting up early in the morning and having my


coffee and then getting off to work and then coming home and having you know just keep something very pleasurable


just like of having that experience I mean on both sides of it of like uh what what is this you know day gonna what's


gonna unfold this day like the excitement of that and then also like you know I think for us like the coming


home like we know we're truly coming home I think we're even getting better and better and better about leaving the


work conversation at the studio at that return yeah yeah that's great yeah hey


Susie and I have a I have a completely different setup because we're you know two different artists right doing


separate businesses and coming in at least talking about a different you know she doesn't necessarily know what I'm


doing but you can see it the space is big enough that you can get off and be separate if you need to be yeah yeah I I


think something I wanted to hit on though just and this is kind of more of an aesthetic thing but I just I do want to talk about it because I don't know I've got a lot of other artists go


through this but like like people will ask me a lot of times they'll say oh it's so great that you get to make the


art that you love and and I kind of pause and I'm like yeah yeah yeah sort of


um I'm not always making things for myself this isn't this isn't a big like


giant like pedestal I'm building for myself so I can crawl on the top and Wave My Flag like this is like yeah I am


thinking about this as a business all the time so that's a big turn off to a lot of younger artists who are like oh


but you got to make great art and change the world I'm like well I'm just trying to like put some food on the table and be able to have a truck that runs you


know and it's like right I'm still in that mindset a lot of times so so when I think about creating a lot of times I am


thinking about my client base and I'm thinking about it as a business like I'll sell a certain number of let's say


it's got an owl in it or whatever right okay subject matters now like I'll come back and go man we just those pieces


just really moved and I'll kind of like we're gonna talk about I'll be like what do you think it was like what was it about that that people really gravitated


to was it the fact that it's all or is it like the wings are wide or you know so I kind of like I really come back and


try to think about those things after a show and and that that a lot of times will


dictate kind of some of the direction that I'm going in I kind of let my audience sort of direct some of that not


all the time you know but I do I do pay attention to that and that's kind of the end goal like during the the covet years


I've been thinking more about that and I'm kind of like going back to a lot of


pieces that I sort of sketched out 15 20 years ago that I didn't have I


don't want to say the courage but because it's not about that but it's more so like pieces that I was like my


audience isn't ready for this yet you know and not not like a you know like circus side show where I'm like I don't


know if I can reveal the great the chest tattoo they're not ready you know but it was like right I don't think they're


ready for this this piece yet it's a little more conceptual or whatever I'm glad you mentioned that yeah and so how


you've been able to express that a little bit more and I've seen some of your stuff and and not necessarily


getting weird but I was about to say it's getting a little weird good yeah let it get weird and people are


responding so here's what's happening over the years what we've tried to do is amass this huge mailing list of


collectors and clients and people that maybe mention that they like something or whatever Alan Ray keeps track of all that she has day ones the first day we


met she wrote down the people that came to that very first opening she has all their info still so we've got like 20


years of like client data so what we do is with that data we'll go back and go oh these you know 1500 people mentioned


that they liked horses well these 7 500 mentioned that they hate horses and they


love cows or whatever so we'll be like okay let's just put horses on hold for a little bit or whatever you know but but


what's happened is over the years we look at that kind of data we go back and look at that and I reflect on it when


I'm creating something and what I noticed was I was like we have a lot of people that are like if you ever make


anything abstract people like people love to throw this word abstract out but I think what they're meaning is like I


don't need a subject matter in there I don't need like the central figure I don't need the owl I don't need the horse or the cow or whatever I just want


something that like is kind of an interesting piece of artwork that that maybe has a little backbone to it and


then I can like hang up in my house and feel like uh it makes me think a little bit so I kind of went back and I was


like you know we have a handful of people that are that now have confidence in in my work have followed us maybe


have a few pieces have multiple homes have your client and now maybe maybe this is the time


like we have the audience now now I can bring those pieces out that I 20 years ago felt okay this is kind of weird I'm


just going to write this down and and so what we've been doing is is I've been periodically kind of like just making


these little drops of like hey something new is coming out not for everybody just making sure I say that like this isn't


for everyone which is kind of a little bit of my like back burner stuff but I'm bringing it out of the archives and


that's also kind of a little marketing tactic obviously like oh yeah this isn't for everybody oh it is it's for me it's


definitely for me yeah I'm different yeah all the things I'm Different he likes me now yeah and and I'm not saying


that to be mean I'm just saying like that's what you have to do that stuff you have to think about the marketing game so I'm now I'm able to bring out


some of these pieces and it's it's like a Bittersweet thing too because I'm like I really wanted to just


make that [ __ ] piece 20 years ago and some people could be like oh look at his work 20 years ago that was really cool but now I'm like well whatever now is


when I can bring it out and now's when I have the audience and now is when maybe I can sell this piece because I have the audience that I've worked to like you


know I've really worked we've worked hard to like make sure the audience is ready and now I can bring it out so that's kind of something we've been


doing and I would say the frequency of shows has been critical to that because I think that there is like


there is a cultivation that needs to happen for that to to have occurred you


know and and uh be it from the way we even just map out the release of these


items the email initiatives that are going to go hand in hand with that and that was so difficult when we were just


show to show to show because you're just trying to make sure you have enough work for the booth and it was really hard for


me to create a schedule and to be disciplined of like we're not going to release this piece until X date because


we want to gradually drip it in have this unveiling of the piece I think is


really important for these more one-off just insular pieces but that really


started to take shape as we have slowed down on shows like we've been able to do that and like you know we work in a


sauna just this just a little interesting tidbit everything is within the sauna and that is like you know


there's a project board now for like some of these pieces because we want to have that sort of intention like that we


reveal them to our to our collectors and on that board just to break it out it'll be like okay you know June 10th like


release the first like sketch of the piece June 15th go on social media and do a video about like hey I'm working on


this you know like so we're really trying to be conscious of being like hey this is a measured approach we want to like you the library said like we want


to kind of slow drip this piece out lead into it Build It Up make it feel like a


big thing it's this is not you know this is nothing new I mean clothing manufacturers clothing companies do this


all the time like product Gucci they they do the slow drip they're like oh yeah you do but this is pretty new to artists I think I don't think a lot of


people do uh that and it's this mostly you're dropping it through Instagram is


that is that how you're doing it yeah mainly through Instagram and then also just a couple specific emails us that we


started about two like probably right during covet during 2020 we started a


separate email list for those people that were most interested in the statement pieces or


for the exact body of work that Dolan is describing the atypical pieces those


individuals get first access they also get early access to other collections of work but part of the major reason


they're on this list is to get first crack at these pieces and we make a commitment that they will always see


these pieces before a show so it would like you know like we would never adjust


the unveiling is not going to happen at Cherry Creek right July 1. we want them to see it first and so it just it


requires more planning and that was really hard um when we had that frequency of shows


but it's feeling more realistic if we have to map it out pretty far in advance but it's just it's more doable now to do


that and we're seeing a lot of success with that and it's it's been fun you know we just see also collectors from


other areas not necessarily places that we're traveling to which is which is exciting because of this process and


that's something too that you built out on a website is that correct Armory where it's like making people can 100 yeah so I mean I the website is a whole


separate thing but but that's a whole is everything the commitment that I've made the amount


of time that I am working on our website now is increased you know tenfold I mean


I it's a minimum of like six to eight hours a week you know and that can be


both like manual changes to the site just like uploading new work but it's really a lot of it is


just strategic planning with new initiatives and we've slowly rebuilt just about every section of our website


over the last two years and we have a developer


obviously like a Shopify developer but then we also have a ux UI interface


designer that I work with he's out of Chicago and he and I just do little


strategy sessions he's worked for Abercrombie sorry Joe I should know that


um but and so we just been talking about just and we're doing a lot of a b testing on the site Heat Map Reviews


stuff like that I made stuff that just really going deeper and deeper into


sight and experience of users and how the heck you get somebody to buy a 10


000 plus dollar piece through a website you know that's a huge shift those folks have to see you first do you think no no


and that's the goal right yeah because we want it to be like like I want it to be the kind of thing where like we have


good clients Yeti Cycles they make these really amazing mountain bikes and they're they're really pricey oh yeah


you know and it's like for someone to go on there and casually just spend 8 10 12 15 grand on a bike it's like oh they


have the confidence you know so we're like trying to work on that like we want people to be confident when they come to the site be like oh in a matter of 30


seconds they can vet us they can see where we've been they can see pieces in people's homes or whatever and they can they can have that that confidence to be


like yeah I feel fine so I am glad that you brought that up I mean I'm I'm gonna go back a little bit and talk about


feeling kind of like like you're trapped into what your clients want you to make


I mean it's like here's I always people are gonna be like that listen to the show or be like here he's gonna to talk


about is his pie chart again but uh like I've got to bring it dude my pie chart


is is like okay well here's what I'm capable like this big section of the pie is like here's what I'm capable of doing


creating as an artist within that same section of the pie it's like here's what I'm creating


or willing to create uh the cells so it's still within that pie of like what I'm what I like and


it's like okay well what I like is to do is within that same chunk of pie what I like to do what I'm capable of doing and


what I'm willing to do and then also within that is like okay what sells so I'm not ever jumping out of what I'm


willing to do and what I'm capable of doing um I'm always I'm always in that of what I want to do but I still as an art show


artist I feel like a lot of us feel like we have to stay within that little piece of the pie that's like okay well this is


this is the [ __ ] that sells this is what I have to focus on so it's interesting to hear but somebody if eat your caliber uh


talking about that too well I feel like though it's so Universal I mean think about like even for musicians it's just like you know and they break out with


new work and they're like play your song what are you doing we don't want to hear that yes yeah absolutely I mean we just


went to see Dylan just needed to make one album yeah I'm just one album Dylan did his entire new album in its


entirety and we were like super close garbage going we're like nobody wants to hear rough and rowdy


ways so will I'm curious like because I feel like sometimes the question has been posed just like well actually I


know a galleristic said to us well that's why you should work with me because I'm going to create this opportunity for you to


to show that work that you're describing you know that you are capable of that is


in you to to do but I feel like we have found that even that it's a


false truth even even there like because even the space it's the space to just


create in that way is very very hard to cultivate I mean do you find that to be


true I mean like it's just like you just don't where is the opportunity to sort of just create for creation's sake you


know when you have the schedule the financial demands the business you've built like the collectors that are expecting these this work I mean that's


what we found is hard to to find it's almost it's next to impossible to find uh when you're on that on that wheel I


think that I'm at a point now where I'm not thinking about it as like a negative thing right like so so often in the


beginning of our careers as artists like we're under this I don't know where this I don't know where this comes from but


it's like the the idea that that you should just wake up and just create some


peace just like jerk off on a piece of paper and then hand it someone they're like this is brilliant and you're like I like that's that's not really fair to


your creativity it's not really fair to like you as a working artist like I feel like there should be some


some work involved and some you know some struggle with with


creating something and then maybe over the years like there's a little bit less struggle but like you're still creativity is like an exercise it's a


workout like I feel like you should still be exercising and doing that granted every now and then we each of us has a thing where we're like we make a


piece and we're like well that wasn't that hard and it looks really cool great that's a win for me but but leading up


to that you have like 10 15 20 years of work that you've been doing that like you know leads into that you've been


doing all these exercises my point being that like I don't feel that I one of you creating work for a client


as something that's like oh that's a negative thing or like that's not the thing that I should be doing or like oh


you know you're selling out if you're well all those things that happen or that come to us as artists that we get handed


to us and a lot of times that you know a professor or two will say oh well you know don't worry about selling it just worry about getting your idea out you're


like well that's great dude but then I'm gonna have all this [ __ ] sitting in my apartment like prop up against the wall


that I can show to my friends when they come over like no I want this stuff to get out of here and I wanna hopefully


they make some money on it you know exactly that's also like there's two to tango I mean we're also you are


interviewing Independent Artists Independent Artists those are ones largely that are that are not working within the gallery model like the The


Collector base we have an intimate relationship with our collectors I mean


how many like people consider us almost like family I mean like I get Christmas cards from some of our from our


collectors that's amazing so it's like inherently I don't think it's a negative too that that that that dialogue with


your collector should be considered a negative thing I mean I really enjoyed Dolan's your point you're making is just


sort of that these are important exercises ultimately with these pieces like each of these pieces plays a part


in the in your opinion of work but I also think that having that dialogue with with your collectors not


necessarily a bad thing either you know like where you are considering their Aesthetics and things like that as well


I wanted to ask you this too I've been collecting my emails a lot more again


over the last like three or four years I really kind of turned it back on but but


it's not too late for for us right I mean it's not you guys have been collecting it yes uh since your early


20s but it's it's not too late for somebody like I don't know who's sitting there listening to it and be like God


it's another one of these things that's nagging me in order to collect the emails that's a good question very good


question and I do clarify like what we're doing with with that information because I


think the Mantra should be quality over quantity always I mean duh you know but


that does not mean we're all our singular goal is not just to like get these emails and dump them into the list


and then just blast people Willie Nelly like like for us what we're doing is


making sure that if there is somebody that expressed interest in like if you have a horse in a cow I want those two


together and we are making sure that we can save that and find it through tagging systems which is essentially


what we're talking about it's like content management and Lead tracking what to focus on is not just collecting


collecting collecting like this push of just collecting but just doing an intentional program of like how do I want to keep this organized so that I


can follow up with these humans when I do create that piece that I'm ready with


that because I think that is what will be so much more successful like the conversion on that


will far exceed just like having a thousand email addresses to have 10 really qualified collectors that you


know if you follow up with them and do a very personalized message be like guess what he made the peace that's gonna work


tenfold versus just like a thousand emails you're just blasting we asked a few questions we have we you know ask


like what is their favorite piece in the booth and then if like we ask about like what is their


favorite subject matter and we say all of that information where's the thing where it's like are you more interested


in Prince are you more interested in originals and that that helps out also


like the subject matter is something that's coming into play more for us so we can start to just be like okay what


you know if you're only interested in nature themed or people like we won't bombard you I mean this is partially I


think true for you Dolan because your work is so much more diverse both in subject matter and in medium and stuff


like that that I think it is a little bit important for us yeah but I and I want to like I don't I'm


very sensitive to making sure that our marketing feels Mindful and intentional


and that like truly we are providing a service to them that we are just not blasting with information that does not


pertain with their with their image stickers and I think that is why we've been pretty successful with people


making continuing on our mailing list for like the 18 years you talked about because we do a little bit of


segmentation and we we just try to operate like I said with an intention


right with that exactly so we get their email to show Sally artist says okay cool


um I met Joe at the show he's a great dude he said he's interested in like follow their loves the work and we will


be interested to see what I have coming out new in the fall we'll say that right which is like the most common thing like I'm not quite ready yeah today oh yeah I


mean we all get that I'm already today but I like the work yeah yeah would love to follow along where can I find your


work right and it's like then then I'm like well you can look at my website but I'd also I'd love to grab your email and


just get you and to send out you know an email newsletter every now and then if I have some new stuff coming out I think you'd probably dig it let me let me send


that to you right and then and then so Alan Marie what do you do with that information there MailChimp is our platform that we use


for email marketing and then within MailChimp we do a series of different segments if it's somebody that's just


really just generally speaking they get a monthly newsletter we keep our frequency at monthly and I will not


change that I'm not going to ever bump our people more than that that feels like an appropriate level


and then if there's been really specific interests that have been conveyed those get segmented within MailChimp they get


tagged based on whether they're interested in new work derivative work um owl stuff like that I can really


quickly pull the description and I can find those people that like to


ask or express interest in over the last you know three to four years


for you 10 years because probably at this point they're not going to be interested but like the last three four years and I can pull those up really


quickly when you suddenly create that piece and then I can Market to those


people specifically and I think for somebody who's just getting started who's like I don't want to get into a sauna just yet or whatever like you can


probably create a spreadsheet go home and like let's say you're a ceramic artist you know that's what I did for


years yeah I just did tabs on a spreadsheet just for these different yeah different interests yeah so you


could literally be like I'm a ceramic artist I sell you know let's say I sell a ton of mugs and bowls and and pot pots


whatever right and then all of a sudden you're sold out of your mugs every show you seem to sell out well you start getting the names of people that are


coming up do you have any more mugs left no but let me get you on this list and then you have 50. it should be that would be its own list like I think for


ceramic artists like mugs if you are just interested in mugs like mugs should be its own email right or marketing list


but if you're like somebody like you know shregmen that like has like these really one-offs more style pieces


or wall pieces and then sometimes he makes the mug stuff like that you know he's a prime example of somebody that I would be like making sure to segment the


email marketing and speaking to those different interest sets uh Dolan you mentioned something about you know doing


a lot of different things I'm all over the place you were just kind of joking but you have a very defined as far as I


see it uh it's a very defined brand uh like a very like I I can say your booth


from a mile away it's like you know what I mean like it's just like that's stolen Dolan's here you know how do you create


and I know you're doing that too Ally Marie with uh um with the emailing too it's all part


of that brand but I feel like when I'm walking into your booth and I think this


is what is a mark kind of a a mark of a really successful artist I don't just


want to buy a piece of your artwork I want to hang a piece of your artwork in


my home that reminds me of you there reminds me of the booth it reminds me of the experience so you're it seems very


no thanks man it seems very intentional um yeah thank you um


uh yeah so so it is intentional a lot of that comes from early on and I was


fortunate that my mom's an artist she does shows still not as many but um mainly does a lot of shows in Virginia


but like when we were when I was growing up I would go to shows with her and while none of us in my family had any


sort of business background she was very very very very very much into like how


to Market yourself how to put yourself out there you know and her big thing was always like you need people to feel like


they can look at your work and immediately tell it's your work there's got to be some signature thing whether


it's like the type of work that you're doing whether it's the colors that you're using whether it's


um your medium whether it's you know how your display looks you want to have a signature style essentially that that is


your brand and and you always want to kind of keep that in in your mind and so for her at the time when we were growing


up she was doing watercolors as well as I but like she was doing watercolors and


um in the area that we lived in in Virginia like this is like early mid 80s like everyone was doing


watercolor Landscapes right it's like the Virginia Countryside it's really beautiful and and but it's like brown


brown wooden Barn green grass Blue Sky here's your postcard right and and every


every show you would go to was like here's the quintessential Virginia


landscape and she I remember you know yeah my sister was born I


remember her telling like talking to me about this like when I was like five or six she's like I gotta figure out a way I really want to be different than all


these other people and the thing that I think everyone's missing is color there's no color on these pieces and they're not interesting and exciting


like she's like when I go outside I'm like Overjoyed I love living here I'm really excited about it like how can I


make people feel that same energy in the pieces and she's like I'm just gonna add


a [ __ ] ton of color yeah and you know not just casually but like I'm gonna I'm gonna just blow this out of the water


people can people will not be able to stop walking down the street they're gonna have to come look at what I'm


doing and so she started making these watercolors and she would do Barns and


she would do through these pinks in there and like bright turquoises and everything was like cranked up the the


Technicolor saturation stuff and not in like a tacky way it was like more like a hey these trees are vivid they're not


just a Brown Bark if you go up and look at the bark of this tree it's got purples and reds and little green


lichens in it I'm gonna put those colors though in the Forefront and I want people to like stop and look at this and


so at the time you know in rural Virginia in the 80s like nobody's doing that and so people would be walking through and they would be like that's


Lisa guymon's work I love it it's bold you know it's different and and and she


kind of created this brand for herself where she was the artist of colorful like Landscapes there are some like


really bold Landscapes so she kind of imparted that to me like if you're gonna if you're gonna do this like it's a lot


of artist out there like what is it that you're doing that's going to set you apart and so for me I I think about that


all the time with The Branding that we're doing I'm like okay you know I've created this line of these these gals


that I have now that people know about and I'm working in I'm working in collage but I'm not doing collage like


necessarily like the way I learned it early on now I'm trying to do it where it's like super detailed and like you


know you have to really get up close to see if it's collage so I've got like a couple things I'm working with and I think that for me I'm always trying to


make sure that like when when I'm setting up a display or when I'm putting my work out in front of people that that


those things that I'm celebrating those things and I'm really like making those things yeah obvious like


this is collage you know we have like little signs and I go with like think this is a painting it's not it's paper like this is actually paper come look at


this yes paper you know and and like really like kind of I don't want to say like hitting


people over the head with it but really just being like like hey cut you're going to want to come look at this because this is this is our brand you


know this is our thing that we're doing and um this is this is what makes this unique and I think that's kind of my


goal when I set up a booth or when I try to make something like it's it's been my goal all along to make sure that that


that element of the work is stands out right yeah in the storytelling I think that's the thing that's helped unify the


work as well there's like an entry and I think obviously somebody in to understand just like


mechanically how a piece like this has had unfolded something atypical something hidden at least in the layers


of the papers that I think are like huh there's something there like that is encouraging the dialogue it is this


narrative quality to the work and the storytelling and that something we try to keep center stage in our branding you


know marketing the storytelling like artist writer Rambler that helps with that with that unity and that comes off


as this image too like even even down to the way you dress too I mean it's all


part of the booth it's like I feel like you fit into your work you I feel like you walk right up without one of your


pieces I appreciate that man yeah and that's again going back to my mom like that's a big thing too like so many


lessons came from her like we're living in a rural area and her rule was and this was something of the era too but


also but her rule was like I I will never leave the house not looking like a million bucks I'm gonna do it [ __ ] do


it because I like yeah we're in rural Virginia and I'm gonna just see my same like redneck friends or whatever but


like I'm not gonna like I'm not gonna look like I just woke woke up and got out of bed that to me is not respectful


to like anybody around me and it also like isn't respectful to myself like I I want to look like a million bucks


because I feel like a million bucks I want people to see that and I want them to always associate that with me like that was a huge lesson that stuck with


me because it's like like I love where I'm from I Love where I grew up I love Virginia I love definitely everything about it but I


also like I I love uh the idea of like hey it doesn't take much to like put on


a clean shirt and like comb your hair put a nice hat on and create your image


like you're you're in charge of that as an individual you know like you can you can create whatever image you want to


and it's like that's you own that that's yours and that is as artists man we can


get away with all kinds of questions if not wear four ties and like no shirt


and just some underwear like


always call it the circuit but it's like a lot of folks don't really take advantage of it and we sit in our chairs


and we kind of sit there in the last art show t-shirt that we you know that we were given for free and we're just gonna


wait around for the next passive sale to come into the booth it's a different business model and if that's yours it


works I freaking go with it who cares but it's like if you want to up your game a little bit I feel like it you


have to kind of do it on every front yeah it doesn't take much again as an artist like you already have a lot going


for you at these shows people are coming into the show whether they're like there to buy something or there to look around


or whatever they did the hard part they got to the show they're there yeah and you know I've been there I've been


sitting back I'm like f this I did not want to be here right now like I want to be finishing that piece that I was


thinking about or I want to be like eating a giant ice cream cone or at a dinosaur like a million things I want to


be doing rather than we're sitting here talking to these people but at the same time like they did the hard part they're they they made it out of their house


they pulled themselves away from their phones their TV their children or whatever coming to walk around to look


at your artwork and it's like that's the hard part I think and and now what you


have to do is you get to be on stage for 30 seconds for a half an hour like you


get to be the performer God who doesn't love that who doesn't want to be a performer for like just a little bit you


know like that's part of it man and and I think the thing that we all know this that no one teaches you in school man


they're teaching you now I don't know but no one teaches you like hey you want to be an artist you need to be a


Salesman sales woman whatever front and foremost you got to be able to sell yourself you know it's like and then


there's all the things right that that come with that and I think with that though like I think it okay I get it like you're a shy person like this is


uncomfortable somebody that I am not nearly the person the performer that Dolan is but just you know okay so like


have the discipline before you get to the show to like to actually write out I mean maybe it feels goofy but like start


practicing a couple questions to just ask a patron or like you have a new body of work okay like what are what is your


elevator pitch do you have your elevator pitch ready because like you said Sometimes you have 30 seconds to just


really hone in on like what is great yeah about this collection what do I want to convey and you know and make


sure you're showing people that like you know you're directing the conversation there or or if you are shy maybe you say


hey best friend who's really like outgoing like you want to come sit at the show with me and like talk to some


people and bring that person along have them help you with the sales have them


at least be the greeter and then that looks really cool as a as a patron you're showing up and then someone else


is green you're like oh the artist is in the back like they're you know like let me see if they're available right now you know like there's you can you can


play that up you know you can like you can make that work to your advantage do you don't feel like that and I know


you've worked with people with sales before in your booth and uh you have space to do that do you feel like it


ever cramps your style a little bit like are people going to be like I I don't know I've got my own thing I don't know


if I want somebody in here like talking you mean you mean like having to have a friend or somebody come with you yes yes


like how do you kind of train them yeah to help I think first and foremost you


find somebody who likes your work or at least understands it and you can explain it to them is happy talking to people so


that person can be like I want you to look for people like the Icebreaker question might be like a a question that's like really gets to the point of


the matter like hey are you not don't ask me this we're like hey are you here to buy something are you here to chat like you know like you got to figure out


that question right like we always yeah and so maybe that person can kind of help break


the eyes help direct the more serious clients to you my online I've had to just you know many times where she's


like hey I can help you with that let's walk over here whatever let me show you that in the meantime it leaves me to


like swim over hang out with a person who's more serious or whatever or they they see me standing there and they're


like oh this this other person's out of the way now I can come talk to you it feels a little bit more private and now you and I can talk


um yeah I think it's I mean honestly I've always marveled at folks like Daryl


that can somehow do these shows by themselves like and well well yeah I


yeah I made a big mistake in Texas this year yeah I mean I needed help yeah you


need help I mean just like the one was saying that many times of like it's challenging because somebody will


travel quite far that has just followed a line online it


it's like that's a valuable space a conversation but it then it's how you honor both of those


patrons in your booth simultaneously is really hard so I think a second person in our case like Fort Worth we had three


of us that was felt actually really necessary at certain moments at Fort Worth so it was really nice or even just


to be able to take a five minute break here and there yeah when I'm like I don't want to be in a


situation where serious client walks in they're surfing around the shark in the booth they're just kind of swimming and


you're like they're serious they're gonna buy something I've got to be available when they're ready to take


the chomp and what always happens always it happens oh my God you're about ready


to go in swims little little fish right in between hey can you tell me about


this piece like I love it I'm an artist and you're like God I want to talk to you you're on you're important but the


Big Shark's ready to take a giant bite out of my work you know like all right and it always happens it always seems to


happen and then you for me I'm the type of person where I'm like I don't want to look like an [ __ ] and not talk to


this really excited Young artist but I kind of need to sell a piece to this giant client so I'm like uh yeah so wow


you know the clients like I'll be back and you're like oh my God what an idiot I shouldn't have let them walk away so


so having two or two or three people you know it's super helpful I mean the mass


volume you're talking I mean Fort Worth is a different Beast Sun Valley I feel like you're right you can do it on your


own um yeah but then again any show man any show I still think any show if you at


least have one other person there yeah that's true give them that look and be like you need to please like it's like


it's like you're at a club and like hey man get this guy out of here like you know like yeah I like the like code


words you know yeah like if I wink twice my left eye and like you know like baseball sides like pull my ear we


literally do that I'll be like if you see me pull over here I'll swoop in and get this person out of here and it's not


like oh I'm too good to talk to people it's like no I gotta sell this thing right now because as a resources it is


it's like as you as we all know it's one of these shows the time between not making a sale and making a sale can be


like two seconds you know where that client's like absolutely and it's I could buy a painting or either you


mentioned the shark but it's it is a lot I mean you and I both do some fishing and it is a lot like fishing and it's


like those big ones out there circling the booth and you're kind of like okay when am I gonna reel it in and then you


got Jimmy comes in and starts slapping on the water about that I like this print you're like right somebody get


Jimmy out of here yeah yeah it's right so you've got the guy and and


you're you and when you're looking for somebody if you're hiring somebody to come along for the weekend if you are uh


getting a friend to come along for the weekend they've got to love your work they've got to be able to talk to people like personable people dress nice


um and just kind of be picking up on the cues and I'll give a little tip here too to people if they're like I don't know


anybody like that I don't have any friends it's like great you don't have to have friends it doesn't matter sometimes artists don't have friends you


know a lot of cities now have a cool like little oh this is the upscale little area or this is a fun area go to some of those shops and watch some of


the people who are in retail and hire them say hey you're awesome I love what


you're doing in here you're you're young you're excited you're happy whatever or even if you're not young you're like but


you're professional and man you got a smile on your face and like would you be willing to come do an art show with me


and I'll trade you some artwork or we can figure out something and nine nine times out of ten they're gonna say that


sounds awesome I'd love to work in our Ferry what is that at all yeah you're like well you just do what you just did I saw you crush it and it's like easier


than ever with like our gig economy now I think people are like yeah like the side hustle like people are much more


like yeah we'll just like set that up on taskrabbit and just like do a couple hour gig thing like cool you know it


makes it the pitch yeah is all the easier now I think that's what I need on the dialogue like hiring gig workers


yeah like just just even that it seems like something that's new in the last couple of years yeah yeah what I don't


do anymore because we've been burned so many times is I don't hire people off Craigslist and I would not advise that


like you wanna you wanna know this person at least a little bit before you


have them come into your booth and help you for the weekend because I we have been burned with some like also the


distinctions it's just helping with like load in Loadout yeah but even that just like disappearing people that you're


like what where did this person come from like this isn't seriously not helpful so like you know going out like


I said in your area find somebody that you think like hey I would buy from them you know do you bring them on the road


do you get them do you like they'll travel with you and stuff too I think it depends yeah I think yeah yeah you can I


think um like I would say do it at like a show where you feel like maybe it's not your biggest show but


it's like a show where if you're if you're if you're just truly trying this out you're like I've only ever worked by myself trying out like a medium level


show I would say it's it's okay to say I'm gonna give you a plane ticket to fly


down do the show with me here's all the details give them all the details here's what we gotta show up here got your hotel whatever I mean I know that sounds


extravagant but it's really not when it comes to the fact that like they might be helping you make some really solid


sales you know yeah I mean if it makes sense for you now if it's a local show great be like hey can you come help me


out if whatever you know Cherry Creek and here's what I need you to be there like an hour early because I want to make sure that you help me like open the


booth up and you can see this stuff I want to show you my work and kind of give you a little Spiel and you may end up hiring them like as a part-time


assistant to come with you to a lot of shows they may end up being really cool and and I'm finding that that happens a


lot more and more for people that I know they're like it's really helpful as a an


artist business owner to have some sales help it's crucial yeah it's so crucial


it's so crucial also I mean thinking about something way back when Chris stalk West was talking and talking about


uh if you're a retail shop that's only open six weekend ends out of the Year


milk that weekend for everything it's worth you know why show up if you're not going to pick it up yeah you know don't


leave anything on the table pick it all up and then those folks are helping you do it right and I think that's like the


lessons of where I think every Arthur artist has to figure out what that frequency is to be able to to do that


very thing you know to maximize the show potential because I think we've all witnessed you know colleagues on the


circuit you're like you're stretched too thin like you're you're you know you can and it's just the reality like you can


only show up about it like a 60 to 70 level because


of the number of shows that you're doing you know or the amount that you're drinking afterwards


you know I was you gotta show up when you're ready it's like yeah well and show up and do the


job Segway but like but it's easy to get into this place of being like I'm on vacation I'm not in my hometown this


isn't a real job and it's like well this is where you could possibly be making like a lot of your income no hopefully


all of your income but like you know and and so like you said when you show up to the show like this is your job you get


there early you make sure everything's perfect and it's not perfect you fix it you do your tinker and a lot of artists


know this and they do this but it's like after the show maybe you don't go out and have a drink and it's so easy for


all of us old heads we're like oh yeah man like that's what we want to do because we did it we've done this for so many years but like sometimes I'm like


yeah you know I think let's do follow-ups yeah we are the Nerds that sometimes will be like yeah we're not


gonna go socialize with our artists We're not gonna go drink We're not gonna go do this we're just gonna go back to the hotel room where we literally will


sit there and like pull out pads and pull over seats from the day and go okay remember this person yeah like we need to make sure we send them an email let's


go ahead and shoot that out now and say hey great to see you today it was awesome like blah blah and so we'll end


up doing that for a couple hours and then not all the time you know we're not we're not getting the gold star every time but like I think a lot of times we


do say like let's do this while it's first I don't know if other people get this but I am just like exuberant I'm


like hell yeah I made it through the show I'm done drinks are on me you know and I'm like


I'm driving on the interstate I'm like oh yeah I'm gonna stop at this park I'm gonna get on you know I'm like so excited to be done with like the job for


the weekend and alemery's like yeah that's cool my job just started again because I got to go put all this


information in and like so so she and I are like totally different after a show she's like please don't talk to me like


for like two days it's different dragon in the hole oh yeah it is like a full-on


well that's I am a you're also an introvert extrovert too right I mean you've got that your Ali Marie leaves


she's completely depleted and Dolan leaves and he's completely charged up this is my marriage right well hey Susie


is just like all those people did for me all weekend was take okay and take I was


like all they did this weekend was give him you know I'm just pumped yeah it's


fired up let's go make some more artwork yeah do it again next weekend it's like right all right everyone I literally


have to go sit in like a quiet space it's gonna be okay it's gonna be okay but but also the whole point of what


you're doing too is you're like I can't celebrate right now now it's go time now we did the show we did the first couple


parts of our job and now I've got to do the other parts of our job which is like I want to make sure that all this


information that we garnered we were talking about earlier like analysts whatever I gotta make sure that that while I'm fret I mean tired but fresh


yeah I've got to get that information into a safe space I gotta go put it in the safety deposit box which is my


computer gotta get all the information in there and that's why like we so we used to drive together to shows which is


a horrible idea if you're married but um you know 20 hours in a van sounds great


one year oh yeah we did it for so long and then now you know after a while Alan Murray was like hey no offense I'm not


riding an advantage for 17 hours I've got to get my [ __ ] done I'm gonna I'm flying back to Chicago or to Denver and


I'm gonna make sure I get home and go right to work straight to the office straight to her desk getting all the


work done so that we can be successful the next round or like we can make sure we get emails out to people that makes


an incredible amount of sense but I want people to leave this talk kind of psyched to get to work


I'm not married to an Ellie Marie it's all this is a one-man show we got two one person shows here at the house and


most people are are a one-person show I mean I feel like it's almost baby steps


as far as as this goes how do you how do you get people psyched to do that if they're just doing it by themselves yeah


and I would just say like for me so so the way I think about it is like this


was a great time like you just got the info you got the gold let's go write all this stuff down so it's baby steps if


you're by yourself you don't have an hour you don't have a part you don't have someone help me out go back to your room order some takeout chill out put


some tunes on and look through your receipts look at those notes and go okay that's good I'm gonna I want to send


myself an email with like these five notes on it it's so hard to do this but it's so valuable right so then you send


that email to yourself great now I can go and if I want to have a drink with my buddy down the bar that's fine because I've done my workout for the evening


right that that Monday Following the show is when it's like very crucial Monday or the Tuesday it's got to be the


first two days after the show where you go back and you say okay before I even unload my van I wanna I'm gonna go into


the coffee shop and sit down or go into the house and sit down make yourself right five to ten notes from the show


even if you didn't sell a single piece fine you still got information from people two months later maybe it's the holidays


are approaching and you're like man I want to do a email blast I'm glad I wrote down all their emails because now


I can email them you know it's like it can be as simple as that yeah I mean I'm we're we're a whole other thing but like


you are I mean you're kind of you're a machine and and it's it's been years of of trying to figure out your your roles


and trying to figure out how to hone that machine and so it can be intimidating to talk to uh just the


finished product or the product at it as it is right now uh for some people so I


just kind of wanted to get a little bit yeah that's fair man that's fair um even I will say this too like this is


another good like nerdy way to do it but you know if you have an iPhone or whatever like just doing a recording as you're driving like just set it on your


dash capture that info capture it while you're in the zone right it's like absolutely who's gonna remember a week


from then or two months you know some people go show to show and they're like I don't oh I remember that piece


somebody was looking at that and I should have written that down or I should have done this so yeah document


document yeah yeah I keep a thing on my phone with the notes in the notes uh folder I'll type them out and I'll just


keep them going I've got a whole list of art ideas and you know 80 of them might


be crap I'll be like oh yeah Now's the Time to go back to do that right and you


were talking about keeping those ideas for so long and I I almost I don't know I try to give myself a little bit of a


break on those and be like you know what I was working on it I was working on it for five years in my head yeah now I'm


ready yeah you know it's like Now's the Time and it would do it what's funny okay what's funny about that is like


five years ago a year ago 10 years ago you do this idea and then you look at like you're like I don't know if that


was such a good idea but then like there's always an audience for that idea you know you can probably run it through the vehicle that you are right now and


be like okay I'm gonna take that from the idea that I wrote down in my notes on my phone or whatever two years later


like now now I know what I need to do to that now I need to get some wings and then really can flow with it you know


exactly yeah we do all and I kind of put together like a a phrase for some of his ideas because obviously he's the ideas


guy you know I mean and actually we're doing yeah that is a shocker right


um we're doing like a strategic plan for ourselves right now like trying to write out like year two year five but um just


a further alienate ourselves for all the other people listening to this yeah are you writing a strategic plan good uh no


but uh part of this is understanding like the different just how much of an


idea is guy that he is and that I am not where I'm headed with this is just like uh I start to like shut down sometimes


with this idea so but we developed this term parking lot for this is actually appropriating from the founder of


scratch Labs um Alan here in uh Boulder uh yeah actually I think also let me


borrowed it from managing tools it may have the uh


here at soldier in the cycling Community okay this is in the realm of parking lot


so that when you do go through your iPhone Notes you can pull up all parking lot ideas like quickly pull those up and


just as an opportunity like sometimes just the importance of getting them out and then I think allowing them to be


voiced you know and I think sometimes at the shows like when you're just sitting there look at your booth like you're


like oh my gosh why don't I do XYZ but then you get back home and get too busy


but like if you would just put down some of these these ideas so then I find all that I know like are we gonna like look


at some of these parking lot ideas together like I'm feeling like let's let's try to manifest one of these for okay for fourth quarter like what one of


these feels feels right to try to bring [ __ ] too yeah and it could be anything like like I'm sure like this like I'll


be driving down the road I'm like oh my God I gotta make this piece right well that's an easy one like put that in the parking lot and just type it in there


but there's other things too where it's like people will just casually say this stuff


to us at Arthur oh you should put your artwork on clothing you're like yeah how the F am I gonna do that like do you


have somebody are you a clothing design ideas


do you want that right like is that something that is of interest to you right okay if it is put in the parking lot and like be like okay that's


something that's you know and then when you go back like every couple months be like I'm gonna just I want to scroll through these parking lot ideas like


okay make this new piece with yellow instead of red okay that's doable like oh make clothing with that stuff that's


a whole other thing like I don't think yeah you know like unless someone comes into my life I don't know that I want to


get into that right now okay cool it's in the parking lot it's what's going to stay it's just sitting there yeah and then you go down the list and you might find a few little like nuggets in there


you're like you know it's just weird sure weird little ideas but but if it gives it a space and for me like having


so many ideas and I know a lot of artists like this like having so many ideas all the time it's a little overwhelming just talking you're like


well no I'm putting it in a place and maybe I'll have time to revisit that later and guess the final part of that is like you know we're also realizing


too like okay identifying those people that maybe you do need to add to your


team or to like your consultant base or the contacts that you have to to actually some of those things because


part of that so for for Alan is scratch Labs is that like he implements none of these ideas that is a whole other team


wow yeah that's a dream right


get it done the ideas but they recognize like these ideas are brilliant and you


know Donald and I have been thinking a lot about that as well like he recognizing that that is one of his greatest strengths is is the ideas and I


think his creatives that is like your strength the skill set like that I bring to the table that others bring to the


table is is the implementation right but that could be like a wide variety of


people and we are like working on expanding our I don't know Rolodex well


I'm like that's very dated so to speak though of like how do we we need more people and like


we need a higher level like uh legal assistance we need a higher level financial assistance we're at that point


of like and adding those people to our our Arsenal so that we can bring more of


these things forth and it's not like it's not realistic to think that an


artist should be doing all these roles it's just not it's not possible you know to do this and so that's something that


we're identifying like need sets through more consultants for us so we can do


more and more of these things like like the clothing idea and stuff like that just getting that idea in the works is


really exciting and and knowing that there's someone that can like you can kind of hand that to and go look


my goal was not to make a million bucks on this thing I just want to see it brought to fruition and it's hard for me


to know as a visual artist how to bring this to fruition right like we don't have to reinvent the wheel right the


wheel's already been invented right people already know how to do that right so why not ask the person or or hire the


person that knows how to do it right yeah that applies to a lot of the different aspects of it a big part of like not for me at least I get


overwhelmed sometimes when I have a bunch of ideas that I think are fantastic I'm like this is these are great these are all these ideas are


great this parking lot's full of brilliant ideas you know I just can't wait to high dollar Park I can't wait


for the parking lot to just become its own thing that's the parking lot is definitely coming into uh that's that's


entering the chat as far as my wife and I go that's she's like baby could you just


the thing is that doesn't make the ideas any less valuable like we are nothing


else we're not you know and but we just we need we don't operate like everybody


you know our ideas are are like our caffeine our fuel and so we're like ah


but sometimes it can be too much caffeine too much fuel right and so that's I think the parking lot place is


like it's really safe for us to have that it is it's very healthy you guys


have been incredible thank you so much for your generosity with your time and your information I mean we've had a


great chat but is there anything you want to talk about that we didn't touch I mean I think I just want them hard to people too like if if you were I mean I


know there's a lot of like artists who've been on the circuit for a while that listen to this and that like you know doing a lot of these things that


we're doing in their own way and everybody everybody's got their own tactics and stuff and I think if you're if you are a little bit younger and


you're kind of just getting in the zone and you're like I'm just started doing this stuff like you know just know that like we have done this for a very long


time and we had to figure a lot of stuff out but artists are always willing I


think if you have friends who are artists always willing to like share stuff with you and you you know just talk to more artists if you don't don't


feel intimidated you know like it's this can be a very lucrative career and it can be a very like a challenging career


at the same time and so it's like it's it's nice to like know that there are a lot of artists who are willing to share


to help out so don't like don't feel like you can't talk to other artists and ask yeah and sometimes there are artists


like you guys that you you might be intimidated to think that they might not share you know it's like wow they're they've got their own thing going it's


like no they're running back to the room to go write all this [ __ ] down yeah basically so we don't forget very forgetful


they're just revealing our aging process what what do we just talk about yeah


exactly but dude thanks so much man I appreciate your time I know it was like a little bit longer but thanks for


letting us know no not at all I mean I I seriously we could we could have gone on forever and and uh I mean we really we


didn't get to talk about QuickBooks I'm kind of upset about that that's next next episode you're breaking up we gotta


go well uh dude thanks again best of luck


at Old Town thank you so much I love you guys I really really appreciate it it was definitely talk to you soon


amazing talk with these guys I love Dolan and Ali Marie and what they had to say I'm going to be picking up some of


their new tips that's for sure pick up the pieces yeah for sure and you do have to remember that this is two people that


are just as invested in the artwork that have very defined roles yeah it's like


it's it and that's what I loved about it but it's it is not necessarily applicable to everyone no but when when


Ali Marie said she met Dolan and she where they kind of met up on that intensity level you can totally see that


in their talk where his passion and intensity for being creative really matches her passion and intensity for


the business side and you put those two pieces together and you've got yourself a perfect pairing you really do it's uh


it's inspiring and um has my wife and I sitting here looking all right which one of us is going to quit right


who's gonna be the one who's gonna pull up the ideas from the parking lot I love that the parking lot put it in the


parking lot we are definitely putting some ideas in the parking lot maybe we should do that Douglas oh I've hey I've


already got ideas in the parking lot uh put it in the parking lot parking lot


hey the parking lot for next week we've got the next episode I sat down and I


talked with Michelle Delgado um totally cool guy amazing I can't wait


to hear that talk I I he he was my neighbor at a show last summer and and I really enjoyed um again just kind of his


presence as well and and uh he's definitely got a feel about his whole body of work and then he's got a


presence about his booth and just his entire personality so can't wait for that talk as well it's kind of like the


it's a perfect like foil to this week this week you know you've got the ultra creative Dolan and you've got the very


business focused Ali Marie and Michelle he says he is all about the experience


he calls himself a Visionary artist so he gets himself into a state kind of a spiritual State and the images come to


him as he creates it's a real intuitive kind of creative process it's different than any other talks I've had and I'm


really really happy to share that next week so so check that one out everyone yeah I'm excited for people to hear that


kind of the yin and the Yang of the art show world totally you've got the Super Hyper focused and then he is hyper


focused but it's more on the creative line of it and if you've got if if he has what you want then you buy it and


that's it and walk away it's done hey one thing I wanted to say about Dolan and Ali Marie the process that I


had never ever considered is I've always been really diligent about collecting the emails but I always put them in like


a location container like this is my Chicago emails and this is my blah blah


blah and as we're traveling more and more and I'm seeing this same people at


multiple regions throughout the country it never occurred to me to start categorizing people by their interests


which bodies of work they like of of ours and organizing them that way it's


like mind-blowing I mean honestly for me business related mind-blowing yeah yeah


it definitely is kind of a wake-up call to me because we do have collectors who you know I do sell a series of


reproductions and some of my customers are only about the reproductions and it's it's pretty amazing to see their


wall of of my work you know what they're collecting we you know that's pretty awesome but they're never going to be


necessarily interested in an original because that's what they're collecting yeah or people I've I found that the


original folks aren't necessarily ever ever interested in in the reproduction


but you can craft your marketing towards those people you're not going to offer


them a discounted sale on on a prince for example if you know that it's not even their interest it's like then it's


like like she said being very intentional about the marketing only presenting these people with what


pertains that's that's kind of the thing otherwise they'll just kick us out and say I'm sick of getting emails from this


guy if it doesn't pertain exactly I feel like that's the one thing we try to do is to never bore our customers and and


with those emails and if you have them as as focused as you can be you'll you'll keep them on board and stay away


from those unsubscribes and that's the thing we're like I don't want to email too much because then they unsubscribe


for me then it's like well then why do we even have the list why do we have the list if we're not ever going to want to send them emails so we have to figure


out how to use that information to our benefits right yeah I got a I got an email yesterday from the NAIA at one of


our big sponsors yeah uh was not able to hit a board meeting and and I um I had I


had written unsubscribed to Diane who was reminding me of the board


just hit her with an unsubscribe and I was like I actually had to ask my


wife I'm like she's my she's my um it's like you got the ID the ego and the super ego she's kind of the superego on


that one I was like should I send that is that funny she was like it's funny to me and you're like you're not helping I


know you find me funny but is this person gonna find me funny right yeah not not always not always we've learned


that the hard way all right well everyone thanks for listening this week and uh we'll see you down at the next


one thanks Doug we'll see you all right bye well this podcast is brought to you by the National Association of


Independent Artists the website is also sponsored by


zapplication that's and while you're at it check out Real's website at

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